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(March 10, 2017 at 11:58 am)Drich Wrote: How would you ever know if God never shows up IF you don't know who God is.
No two believers ideas of god seem the same.
If a presumptive deity appeared and started spouting unadulterated Evangelical Lutheran Church in America dogma I'm sure despite any supernatural affectations that entity displayed, the Presbyterians, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists and Baneemyites would all agree that deity was a manifestation of Satan.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
March 10, 2017 at 1:04 pm (This post was last modified: March 10, 2017 at 1:21 pm by Drich.)
(March 10, 2017 at 12:47 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:
(March 10, 2017 at 11:58 am)Drich Wrote: How would you ever know if God never shows up IF you don't know who God is.
No two believers ideas of god seem the same.
That is because God is infinite, and we are finite. So we being finite grab a hold and talk about the tiny little piece of the finite we can understand.
The ultimate measure of what is and is not God can only be found in the bible.
(March 10, 2017 at 12:55 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:
(March 10, 2017 at 12:47 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: No two believers ideas of god seem the same.
If a presumptive deity appeared and started spouting unadulterated Evangelical Lutheran Church in America dogma I'm sure despite any supernatural affectations that entity displayed, the Presbyterians, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists and Baneemyites would all agree that deity was a manifestation of Satan.
But here's the thing... Who do we worship? The God of the baptist the God of the lutherns The God of_______???
Ultimately all religious expressions are wrong to one degree or another, and like wise all Jesus Christ centered religions are right to one degree or another.. And to take it a step further the bible points out there will be a very large 'non Christian' population found in Heaven also.
This means that Christianity/Salvation are not about the title we give ourselves, its not about the pews we sit in, and it not about 'dogma' or 'doctrine'. It is about the judgement Christ makes. If Christ is the decider of who has and does not have righteousness through atonement, then He can and will decide interdependently of dogma and doctrine who is worthy of salvation and who is not. This is what so terrible upset the Pharisees. Christ was userpting the role of religion. He dare place His authority of that of the 'church.'
The church before Christ has no authority, the church's role on an eternal time frame is that of wife/head of the house hold. The church's role is not to create dogma and doctrine but to carry out the wish and will of Christ. If a manifestation of the church believes that they have authority beyond that of a servant to God, that their tradition or doctrinal beliefs supersede the authority of Christ or what Christ has said.. Then I would say most of those members of that church will be surprised after their judgement is over.
In short there is a good reason no one denominations beliefs are spelled out in the bible. that they for the most part have to cherry pick to create their core doctrines.. That's because despite what many believe we were meant to live in freedom. So much freedom we have the right to bind ourselves with church doctrine and dogma is this is all we understand.
So yes I can see Jesus talking to the lutherns, but I can also see Him speaking to the baptists, catholics and everyone else (As he does in the first coule of chapters of revelation) telling each of them where they lack, and how to tighten up or be prepared to find themselves outside of christ's judgement
March 10, 2017 at 1:30 pm (This post was last modified: March 10, 2017 at 1:33 pm by KUSA.)
(March 10, 2017 at 10:22 am)Drich Wrote:
(March 9, 2017 at 11:51 pm)KUSA Wrote: Go ahead and call me a name. It just shows me that you don't take Jesus seriously.
What you say is not obvious. It sounds absurd actually.
You guys have a messed up idea of Jesus. Jesus was forever making fun of his disciples for not getting stupidly simple things because they like you were hard headed nuts who were forever trying to fit what Christ said in their own world view rather than change their world view to fit what Christ said.
He called them fools, foolish, call peter petra Which is pebble not actually peter/petros. pebble refered to his small intelect or understanding. He literally changed his name from simon to pebble. Why? because again lke many of you peter was too proud to consider Christ, so Christ took it upon himself to take simon down a few pegs. Not to mention what he said and did to the "holy men" of His day.
I don't point this out to justify what I do. i point this out to show you the contrast between your verion of who God is and what God/Jesus was described in the bible.
If I remember right you searched out your version of God and found little to nothing, and I did the same and found myself stood/groveling before him.
Maybe just maybe it is safe to say what you think God to be does not exist, and who I found to be there wearing the crown was God even if you would not recognise Him for it.
Quote:As in WHAT IF HE IS NOT INVISIBLE!!!
would that then be proof?
Quote:He is not visible to me. I was a Christian for most of my life and I've never seen him.
Again, you only ever looked for what you thought God to be, and didn't find it. You shunned me for calling people names while Christ Himself spent a great deal of time effort and energy calling people names. You thought it to be unchrist like, despite all the examples given of Christ doing this very thing...
Do you get it?
how much more is God than you know? When you looked for God what attributes did you look for? If you did not know what God truly looks like how will you know when you find Him?
If you think God is ABC and really He is XYZ then all you can really say is I looked for ABC and did not find God. That said How do you know that XYZ has not does not already spent time with you daily weekly or monthly?
The point is if you don't know what to look for How will you ever know it to be God? Put it another way.. When outside of the book of revelation Does God come with an entourage and all the fan fair people of Great renown like to surround themselves with?
Quote:How many times have Ive gone on and on about how Biblical Christianity is different than any other religion in the world in that it puts the believer in one on one contact with God!
Quote:I'm sure you've said it a million times but it still doesn't make any sense.
Everyother world religion funnels worshipers to someone or preist, prophet, pope, Imam or some other religious offical more holy than you to act as an intermediary between yourself and God. Everyone with fail needs that religious hierarchy to interpret in essence to tell you what God wants.
Biblical Christianity is completely different it looks to separate man from the 'religious experience' and put us in direct contact with God. in that way we become the prophets we become the priests of our lives. Emanuel=God IN US.
Yes there are trainning wheel versions of Christianity where they follow a more traditional religious role but there are also 29K versions that point to the freedom I am talking about.
Quote:I'm not offering proof I'm offering God. It is God's job to offer proof/open your eyes. My job is to point you to the spot He tells us to stand.
Quote:I've stood there and saw nothing.
Who were you looking for? Your guy or the one in the bible?
Quote:How about this: My Accessibility to God is akin if not easier than my accessibility to God. As that is how I often times answer your posts.
So then if you are offered the same accessibility could you then see why proof of God could then be found in God?
If I could do the Vulcan mind meld, I could clear your mind of all these delusional thoughts you have.
I wish you could so you could see what I have seen. I wish I could give the gift of Hell, but I might do more harm than good...
[/quote]
So whenever anyone doesn't find god, it is always their fault. No matter how hard someone tries, they didn't have the exact image of what he looks like so they didn't find him. And if you fail to find him, he casts you into eternal torment.
Drich, the more you talk about your god, the more I don't want to look for him. You actually drive people away from your god.
I know several Christians that are loving, caring people that I don't mind listening to them witnesses. They make me feel sympathetic to their cause because they are such upstanding people.
You are not one of these people. You are derogatory, spiteful, and downright mean. If god is real, I have a feeling that he will cast you out for driving so many people away.
She's right you know. Many of it is in the Old Testament but as you can see... there's plenty of vileness in the new testament and from Jesus himself. And as you can see, Jesus said he came to fulfil the old testament and be brought not peace but a sword.
Jesus was a nasty bastard.
She's not right, period.
I could go down that list and address every point, but it wouldn't accomplish anything since most of them have already been addressed, yet you guys repeat the same old rhetoric ad nauseam.
(March 9, 2017 at 2:00 am)Stimbo Wrote: Like you've ever presented evidence to back up any of your assertions.
Your incredulity and/or hyper-skepticism does not equate to “no evidence” on my part.
(March 10, 2017 at 1:30 pm)KUSA Wrote: So whenever anyone doesn't find god, it is always their fault.
Yeah, pretty much.
And yet no evidence has been presented. You keep brining up Aquinas's 5 ways as though they were evidence in some way, they aren't.
An argument is just that, they need to be backed by supporting evidence.
Or else a scientist could just say "that's probably quantum" about everything and not bother actually checking.
What you have presented isn't good enough on its own to count as evidence.
Just because my bar for what I accept as compelling evidence is set a little higher than yours appears to be doesn't make me hyper-sceptical. Nor does the evidence as might be presented being invariably sleight of hand, outright lies and/or not actually what it says on the tin. Incredulity, properly applied, isn't the condemnation you try to make it sound. It's actually a vital survival tool, standing between me and solar roadways, homeopathy, thorium cars, timeshare apartments and other similar snake oil.
Give me something that actually supports whatever your point is, that is unambiguous, and that doesn't rely on logical fallacies and lies for its propagation, and I will consider it. But don't blame me if nothing remains once all the setritus is boiled away.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
(March 10, 2017 at 2:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Your incredulity and/or hyper-skepticism does not equate to “no evidence” on my part.
And yet no evidence has been presented. You keep brining up Aquinas's 5 ways as though they were evidence in some way, they aren't.
With respect to Aquinas, the demonstrations are based on common observations, i.e. things about the world that are 'evident'. That's what evidence means. It is evident that beings can persist despite changes (1W). It is evident that efficient causes are essentially ordered (2W. It is evident that there is something rather than nothing (3W). It is evident that some things better instantiate their kind (4W). It is evident that causes have regular effects (5W). More recently, I have been mentioning other things that are evident: the natural instinct of humans to believe, apprehension one's self in relation to being-as-such, and cross-cultural consistency in mystical experiences of the divine. All that counts as evidence. I can appreciate if you feel the evidence does not support my conclusion, but that's not the same thing as claiming "no evidence."
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