Asking if we'd believe this stuff if it could be shown to be true is a completely separate question to would we worship it. Sure we'd have no choice but to accept the evidence, but it's a whole other step to enchain one's life to it. It's rather like asking if I could prove to you that I can make a cake out of horseshit and dead flies, would you eat it?

If God turns out to be real and He damns me to hell, I'd accept my "punishment" knowing that at least I didn't suck up to a sadistic monster and that I am morally superior to Him.

(March 16, 2017 at 8:04 am)Stimbo Wrote: Asking if we'd believe this stuff if it could be shown to be true is a completely separate question to would we worship it. Sure we'd have no choice but to accept the evidence, but it's a whole other step to enchain one's life to it. It's rather like asking if I could prove to you that I can make a cake out of horseshit and dead flies, would you eat it?

Science is pointing away from the god of the gaps, but in the extremely remote chance it was proven, based on the reality we observe now, there is absolutely no way I would worship such a being. 10,000 years of religion and not one era in that time where there was no violence which we still see today. Childhood famine, childhood disease and rape and molestation. That aspect alone would not lead me to conclude such a being is all loving or moral.

Theists will falsely say that I am angry at this god, not at all. I view this claimed being like a character in a bad movie or horrible book. It is the logic of such claims that I object to. But if such a being were proven to be real, yes we would accept that reality, but that would not cause me to want to value or worship such a selective narcissistic self centered bully.

"If" we pretend that a future would bring such evidence, I would still want to kick this asshole in the nuts and tell him to fuck off. Imagine if a parent behaved in the same cherry picking selective deadbeat manor this alleged god character is depicted as. What if a parent has 4 kids, feeds one well, dotes on it, gives it care. But leaves another outside in the freezing cold. Leaves another with an abusive spouse who beats them daily. Leaves another with a child molester. If CPS discovers this the parent is arrested and the children are taken away.

I simply cannot buy theist logic of "all loving" and "all powerful" claiming there is a magical sky wizard security guard looking out for us, not when 50 to 60 million humans die on average every year worldwide, of all ages, from everything you can imagine. It isn't a real god I object to, but the logic of claiming such things.

(March 15, 2017 at 6:15 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: When I was a theist, the most compelling argument I ever heard for atheism was, "Read the bible fully."

Personally, people who read the canon in order from start to finish are ill-advised. That may leave you with a basic biblical timeline, which is a good thing, but also leads to much confusion. The texts have to be read both forwards and backwards to draw out all the foreshadowing and typology. My favorite technique is finding a common phrase, consulting a concordance, and then comparing how it is used in each instance. The texts open up in unexpected ways to reveal hidden themes and allusions threading their way through the narrative. These threads tie the stories together just as Jesus said, "If you believed Moses then you would believe me..." (John 5:46) I find that approach more helpful than the typical topical approaches most bible study groups use. Those seem more like proof-texting clubs. I'd be happy to share videos of some study groups that take that approach, albeit from a Swedenborgian perspective, for anyone who is interested.

(March 16, 2017 at 8:33 am)ma5t3r0fpupp3t5 Wrote: If God turns out to be real and He damns me to hell, I'd accept my "punishment" knowing that at least I didn't suck up to a sadistic monster and that I am morally superior to Him.

I got good news and bad news for you Ma.
Let us start with the bad news anyway.
The bad news is that you will keep on floating in this material universe until you will start use logic and start thinking that a creation must have a creator.
The good news instead is that God can not possibly punish anyone even if the karma law is there as a way
to teach and sort out problems.
You just punish yourself by not following logic.
In any case at the end when the lesson will be learn everybody will become part and parcel of the ocean of cosmic bliss.
No hell exist except the mental hell that we create by not using logic.  

---

(March 16, 2017 at 9:37 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 16, 2017 at 8:04 am)Stimbo Wrote: Asking if we'd believe this stuff if it could be shown to be true is a completely separate question to would we worship it. Sure we'd have no choice but to accept the evidence, but it's a whole other step to enchain one's life to it. It's rather like asking if I could prove to you that I can make a cake out of horseshit and dead flies, would you eat it?

Science is pointing away from the god of the gaps, but in the extremely remote chance it was proven, based on the reality we observe now, there is absolutely no way I would worship such a being. 10,000 years of religion and not one era in that time where there was no violence which we still see today. Childhood famine, childhood disease and rape and molestation. That aspect alone would not lead me to conclude such a being is all loving or moral.

Theists will falsely say that I am angry at this god, not at all. I view this claimed being like a character in a bad movie or horrible book. It is the logic of such claims that I object to. But if such a being were proven to be real, yes we would accept that reality, but that would not cause me to want to value or worship such a selective narcissistic self centered bully.

"If" we pretend that a future would bring such evidence, I would still want to kick this asshole in the nuts and tell him to fuck off. Imagine if a parent behaved in the same cherry picking selective deadbeat manor this alleged god character is depicted as. What if a parent has 4 kids, feeds one well, dotes on it, gives it care. But leaves another outside in the freezing cold. Leaves another with an abusive spouse who beats them daily. Leaves another with a child molester. If CPS discovers this the parent is arrested and the children are taken away.

I simply cannot buy theist logic of "all loving" and "all powerful" claiming there is a magical sky wizard security guard looking out for us, not when 50 to 60 million humans die on average every year worldwide, of all ages, from everything you can imagine. It isn't a real god I object to, but the logic of claiming such things.

And your evidence that people die is.....?
Oh, you mean when the body die?
So you work out that the body is the real you, do you?  

(March 15, 2017 at 11:06 am)Whateverist Wrote: The best reason for atheism is the refusal to take on faith unsupported claims which are farfetched and/or absurd on the face of it.  One does not argue their way to atheism, one merely refrains from embracing theism and other crazy sounding beliefs without good reason.

People have different opinions about what is far-fetched or absurd do they not? I find the Dawkins's notion that we are "biological robots in a meaningless universe" and Dennett/Churchland's assertions about consciousness being an illusion - both of those - absurd. I also find the notion that facts about nature can supply any kind of moral values far-fetched. And those are just the start of a whole host of conclusions that I see as ridiculous responses to the human condition. The idea of an intelligent self-sustaining ground of being seems far less implausible to me.

(March 16, 2017 at 9:37 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(March 15, 2017 at 6:15 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: When I was a theist, the most compelling argument I ever heard for atheism was, "Read the bible fully."

Personally, people who read the canon in order from start to finish are ill-advised. That may leave you with a basic biblical timeline, which is a good thing, but also leads to much confusion. The texts have to be read both forwards and backwards to draw out all the foreshadowing and typology. My favorite technique is finding a common phrase, consulting a concordance, and then comparing how it is used in each instance. The texts open up in unexpected ways to reveal hidden themes and allusions threading their way through the narrative. These threads tie the stories together just as Jesus said, "If you believed Moses then you would believe me..." (John 5:46) I find that approach more helpful than the typical topical approaches most bible study groups use. Those seem more like proof-texting clubs. I'd be happy to share videos of some study groups that take that approach, albeit from a Swedenborgian perspective, for anyone who is interested.

Backwards? I hope you don't listen to Beatles records backwards. Planning to have a hippy ranch in the California desert are you?

Poppycock. You read the bible not objectively but to convince yourself that book is true.  Sorry, but Genesis alone is both scientifically absurd and the first story in it is immoral on top of that. 

Adam and Eve are pawns, poker chips in a rigged bet between God and Lucifer. Innocent characters who had no say going in, and blamed for the bet they didn't make and punished for the setup God didn't have to put in place. It is the ultimate victim blaming.

But then there is the bullshit clear as the print, where the book has humans magically popping out of dirt, women magically popping out of a man's rib. It treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light when science proves that sunlight bounces off the moon. It has stories of talking snakes, talking donkeys and talking bushes. That book of myth reads like any comic book, but much more poorly written than any Marvel or DC comic. I find more value in a Star Wars movie. 

No amount of reading that book will make your god real. It is only good for reading to understand mythology, but that is it.

(March 16, 2017 at 9:44 am)Little Rik Wrote: The bad news is that you will keep on floating in this material universe until you will start use logic and start thinking that a creation must have a creator.

Actually, logic can't get me to start thinking that the Universe is a "creation" and that there must be a "creator".

(March 16, 2017 at 9:44 am)Little Rik Wrote: The good news instead is that God can not possibly punish anyone even if the karma law is there as a way
to teach and sort out problems.
You just punish yourself by not following logic.
In any case at the end when the lesson will be learn everybody will become part and parcel of the ocean of cosmic bliss.
No hell exist except the mental hell that we create by not using logic.  

This wall of text is completely void of content at best and asinine at worst. However, I regard your positive notions as not being so deplorable.

(March 15, 2017 at 7:19 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I was convinced by my own sincere search to see if my theistic beliefs were actually rational, supported by evidence and reasoned argument...After a bit of research using history, philosophy, archeology, science, reading the Bible itself, that convinced me that my beliefs were not rationally justified.

Indeed. I believe you when you say that you did in fact do a sincere search. So if you would return the favor and believe that I did the same. In doing so I shed naive notions about God and the biblical narrative that did not hold up to scrutiny. I remained an atheist until I became aware of more mature notions of deity and nuanced approaches to the biblical texts. Even then I remained skeptical although I was willing to admit that Christian beliefs were reasonable and justifiable. It was only after exhausting (in my opinion) the logical conclusions of a world without god and a couple of personal experiences with the ineffable that I came to belief. YMMV. Everyone must decide for themselves what makes the most sense of the world. "But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” - Joshua 24:15

(March 15, 2017 at 11:06 am)Whateverist Wrote: Limp Rik: Yeah, that would be like trying to clean out a chimney using yoga.  I'm sure people would fail again and again there too.  So is there anything at all that yoga is good for apart from keeping limber? Nope.

Well, well mate. (are we still mates?)
I am glad that you are aware that yoga is good for the body.
Unfortunately you never heard about the old saying.........Mens sana in corpore sano is a Latin phrase, usually translated as "a sound mind in a sound body". The phrase is widely used in sporting and educational contexts to express the theory that physical exercise is an important or essential part of mental and psychological well-being.

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid...+means&*

In other words by keeping the body in good nick or health you also keep your mind sharp and focus so yoga is also good for the mind.
On the contrary most of the intellectuals do not keep their body healthy that is why they are not very smart and logic in their thinking.
But of course you are not an intellectual mate, isn't it Whatever?