(April 2, 2017 at 5:37 am)Pitsligo Wrote:

(April 1, 2017 at 7:01 pm)Shell B Wrote: You're as untouched by it as the next person, but yet you want to white knight the shit out of the trans community so you can be as PC as possible.

What makes you think the next person isn't trans, or a close family member of someone who is trans?

You realize that the next person is a metaphor, right? Also, I'm not the person who originated that term in this thread. I was told that people who were untouched were in this thread talking about it by Mathilda, I believe. How does she know I'm untouched by it? Why don't you ask her instead of me?

Well, it looks like the "don't talk about this" folks have ruined the thread and turned it into an argument over the merits of talking about something instead of an actual fucking conversation. Hope someone else brings it up again soon where it can be discussed in peace.

No, it was a good point. There's always new people who haven't talked about a topic before.
I've been tempted to say the same thing about the free will conversations. (Too Many)
But there's always the chance that someone might bring something new to the table and I hadn't really thought of that until Shell pointed it out.
And of course, why should someone else shut up just because I'm sick of a certain topic.

When someone competes as a tran athlete their gender should be the one they have transitioned to not the one they were born with. So male to female trans should compete
as females against other females. Female to male trans should compete as males against other males. If male to female trans retain higher than average levels of testosterone
which gives them an advantage [ although not an unfair one ] over cis females so be it. It should actually provide cis females with inspiration to train and compete even harder

There is no point in transgenders actually undergoing transition if society is going to treat them according to their gender of birth. They should in all circumstances be treated according
to their gender of choice after transition. Society should not be allowed to deny them this. Cis people are routinely treated according to their gender of choice so there is no reason why
trans should not be accorded the same  I am not a white knight or a social justice warrior and I do not speak for any trans. I am an egalitarian who thinks that while human beings are
fundamentally different to each other in some respects and less so in others they should as far as possible be treated as equal. Denying trans their legitimacy is not how to achieve this

(April 3, 2017 at 4:41 am)surreptitious57 Wrote: When someone competes as a tran athlete their gender should be the one they have transitioned to not the one they were born with. So male to female trans should compete
as females against other females. Female to male trans should compete as males against other males. If male to female trans retain higher than average levels of testosterone
which gives them an advantage [ although not an unfair one ] over cis females so be it. It should actually provide cis females with inspiration to train and compete even harder

There is no point in transgenders actually undergoing transition if society is going to treat them according to their gender of birth. They should in all circumstances be treated according
to their gender of choice after transition. Society should not be allowed to deny them this. Cis people are routinely treated according to their gender of choice so there is no reason why
trans should not be accorded the same  I am not a white knight or a social justice warrior and I do not speak for any trans. I am an egalitarian who thinks that while human beings are
fundamentally different to each other in some respects and less so in others they should as far as possible be treated as equal. Denying trans their legitimacy is not how to achieve this

Why do you have to wait until they transitioned?  Are you saying a transgender woman who hasn't gone through the operations is not really a woman?

(April 3, 2017 at 9:36 am)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 4:41 am)surreptitious57 Wrote: When someone competes as a tran athlete their gender should be the one they have transitioned to not the one they were born with. So male to female trans should compete
as females against other females. Female to male trans should compete as males against other males. If male to female trans retain higher than average levels of testosterone
which gives them an advantage [ although not an unfair one ] over cis females so be it. It should actually provide cis females with inspiration to train and compete even harder

There is no point in transgenders actually undergoing transition if society is going to treat them according to their gender of birth. They should in all circumstances be treated according
to their gender of choice after transition. Society should not be allowed to deny them this. Cis people are routinely treated according to their gender of choice so there is no reason why
trans should not be accorded the same  I am not a white knight or a social justice warrior and I do not speak for any trans. I am an egalitarian who thinks that while human beings are
fundamentally different to each other in some respects and less so in others they should as far as possible be treated as equal. Denying trans their legitimacy is not how to achieve this

Why do you have to wait until they transitioned?  Are you saying a transgender woman who hasn't gone through the operations is not really a woman?

I don't think transition = surgery, surgery is just one possible step in transitioning.

(April 3, 2017 at 4:41 am)surreptitious57 Wrote: If male to female trans retain higher than average levels of testosterone
which gives them an advantage [ although not an unfair one ] over cis females so be it. It should actually provide cis females with inspiration to train and compete even harder

That doesn't make any sense. If they retain higher levels of testosterone and have an advantage, there is no way bio females can just "try harder."

Quote:There is no point in transgenders actually undergoing transition if society is going to treat them according to their gender of birth.

Well, I disagree. I think they should transition to make themselves feel more themselves. It helps them on a personal level. I'm not necessarily talking about treating them differently. I'm talking about whether it's hurting biological women in sports. If it is, we need to think of a solution that is fair to everyone. I might feel like a kid inside, but it's not cool for me to go kick some ass at a Little League game.

Quote:Cis people are routinely treated according to their gender of choice

Oh, come on. Choice? Now we're acting as if people have a choice as to the gender they're born with. We've just come right around from "it's not a choice" to "it's not a choice, unless you're a straight person who is comfortable with their biological gender."

---

(April 3, 2017 at 9:36 am)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 4:41 am)surreptitious57 Wrote: When someone competes as a tran athlete their gender should be the one they have transitioned to not the one they were born with. So male to female trans should compete
as females against other females. Female to male trans should compete as males against other males. If male to female trans retain higher than average levels of testosterone
which gives them an advantage [ although not an unfair one ] over cis females so be it. It should actually provide cis females with inspiration to train and compete even harder

There is no point in transgenders actually undergoing transition if society is going to treat them according to their gender of birth. They should in all circumstances be treated according
to their gender of choice after transition. Society should not be allowed to deny them this. Cis people are routinely treated according to their gender of choice so there is no reason why
trans should not be accorded the same  I am not a white knight or a social justice warrior and I do not speak for any trans. I am an egalitarian who thinks that while human beings are
fundamentally different to each other in some respects and less so in others they should as far as possible be treated as equal. Denying trans their legitimacy is not how to achieve this

Why do you have to wait until they transitioned?  Are you saying a transgender woman who hasn't gone through the operations is not really a woman?

Well, I know I am. She's not physically a woman yet. She has the build and hormones of a man. Basically, fuck cis women, huh? Let them get their faces beat in by trans folk who are physically men in the ring for the cause of equality! Yeah. You (general you) keep talking about trans rights, but don't seem to give a shit about cis women. Noice.

Out of interest, would there be any objections (from people here, trans or not) to having separate events for transsexual athletes in sports, so that MtF can compete against each other, and likewise, FtM can compete against each other? That seems like the most obvious and fair solution to me.

(April 3, 2017 at 10:31 am)Tiberius Wrote: Out of interest, would there be any objections (from people here, trans or not) to having separate events for transsexual athletes in sports, so that MtF can compete against each other, and likewise, FtM can compete against each other? That seems like the most obvious and fair solution to me.

While it would put the fears of fairness to rest, there's always the problem of segregating underprivileged minorities. We've seen how well that can go. It tends to just bury them out of the way so they can be ignored and neglected.

I'd also like to make another note unrelated to your post, Tiberius. As much as it bothers me when people who don't seem to know much at all about trans people try to argue against them, it also doesn't help when people who know just as little try to argue for them. It just muddies the waters that much more. I'm watching some of that go on in this thread as well.

(April 3, 2017 at 10:31 am)Tiberius Wrote: Out of interest, would there be any objections (from people here, trans or not) to having separate events for transsexual athletes in sports, so that MtF can compete against each other, and likewise, FtM can compete against each other? That seems like the most obvious and fair solution to me.

I think the stages of transitioning would complicate it.  As far as I know, you can identify as a woman without any of the physical transitioning.  So you encounter the same biological complications from before.

(April 3, 2017 at 10:46 am)Jesster Wrote: While it would put the fears of fairness to rest, there's always the problem of segregating underprivileged minorities. We've seen how well that can go. It tends to just bury them out of the way so they can be ignored and neglected.

Noted, but I don't see any other way around it that's fair to everyone involved. At the end of the day, there are rules about males competing against females, and there are rules about taking hormones. There's always going to be a asterisk next to the transgender weightlifter's record mention in the OP, because she used to be a man, trained as a male weightlifter, etc. Hormone therapy can only do so much, and it seems that the situation is a catch-22. Make her compete against men and she's at a disadvantage due to her hormone therapy; make her compete against women and they are at a disadvantage because of her male physique that has allowed her to have muscle mass and strength that people born as women cannot achieve.

Having separate events solves both those issues.