(April 3, 2017 at 10:54 am)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 10:31 am)Tiberius Wrote: Out of interest, would there be any objections (from people here, trans or not) to having separate events for transsexual athletes in sports, so that MtF can compete against each other, and likewise, FtM can compete against each other? That seems like the most obvious and fair solution to me.

I think the stages of transitioning would complicate it.  As far as I know, you can identify as a woman without any of the physical transitioning.  So you encounter the same biological complications from before.

Right, but there are currently procedures in place to prevent that anyway. The article in the OP stated that her testosterone level had to be below a certain amount for the year before she competed, so a male weightlifter couldn't just say he identifies as a woman and immediately go on to compete against women.

I just don't think the hormone measurement goes far enough to eliminate unfairness.

(April 3, 2017 at 10:31 am)Tiberius Wrote: Out of interest, would there be any objections (from people here, trans or not) to having separate events for transsexual athletes in sports, so that MtF can compete against each other, and likewise, FtM can compete against each other? That seems like the most obvious and fair solution to me.

I can see where you are coming from with this, but idk if it's the right solution. I don't think it get the balance right between competitive fairness and the trans persons rights to gender determination. To me it seems a bit like telling a trans person they are not male/female enough to properly compete as a male/female. Also don't know if there are enough trans athletes to actually make a worthwhile competition (maybe at national levels, but when you get down to school/college level you might only have one or two trans athletes in any given competition).

I think a better solution would be to scrap events based on gender altogether and group according to ability, so you'll have a mix of genders in all events. Kinda like the way disability is grouped into different classes at the paras maybe?

(April 3, 2017 at 4:41 am)surreptitious57 Wrote: When someone competes as a tran athlete their gender should be the one they have transitioned to not the one they were born with. So male to female trans should compete
as females against other females. Female to male trans should compete as males against other males. If male to female trans retain higher than average levels of testosterone
which gives them an advantage [ although not an unfair one ] over cis females so be it. It should actually provide cis females with inspiration to train and compete even harder

There is no point in transgenders actually undergoing transition if society is going to treat them according to their gender of birth. They should in all circumstances be treated according
to their gender of choice after transition. Society should not be allowed to deny them this. Cis people are routinely treated according to their gender of choice so there is no reason why
trans should not be accorded the same  I am not a white knight or a social justice warrior and I do not speak for any trans. I am an egalitarian who thinks that while human beings are
fundamentally different to each other in some respects and less so in others they should as far as possible be treated as equal. Denying trans their legitimacy is not how to achieve this

Women are already inferior to men when it comes to physical competition and will more than likely always be beat by a man in this type of field. Seperating the men from the women in these competitions is usually the only chance a woman has. It wouldn't be fair that they (we) should also have to worry about being beat by someone with a male advantage even in a woman's only competition. It's not fair that we as women should always come second in that regard.

I'm a bit passionate about this because I was in sports in high school. I was in cross country and track. In both those sports, the men and women's team train together and had all the practices together. Though we were separated for the actual competitions. Anyway, practicing with the guys allowed me to see how much better men are at running than women, and showed me how much stronger men's bodies are. The slowest guy in our varsity team was still entire minutes faster than our fastest girl. And it wasn't just about muscle mass and testosterone. The very shape of their bodies (narrower pelvis/hips, and wider rib cage/bigger lungs) and longer legs allowed them to be far superior runners from us.

I feel bad for transgender folks, I really do. It must be very hard feeling left out. You are all still people and you are loved. But consideration has to be given to all the other women as well, and they deserve a fair competition. In a world where men are stronger and faster, women's only competitions allow us a place where we don't have to always be second best.

(April 3, 2017 at 11:08 am)ukatheist Wrote: I can see where you are coming from with this, but idk if it's the right solution. I don't think it get the balance right between competitive fairness and the trans persons rights to gender determination. To me it seems a bit like telling a trans person they are not male/female enough to properly compete as a male/female. Also don't know if there are enough trans athletes to actually make a worthwhile competition (maybe at national levels, but when you get down to school/college level you might only have one or two trans athletes in any given competition).

I think a better solution would be to scrap events based on gender altogether and group according to ability, so you'll have a mix of genders in all events. Kinda like the way disability is grouped into different classes at the paras maybe?

You make some strong points. While there might be some amount of merit for Tiberius's suggestion on a national or international level, it certainly doesn't cover smaller local areas. As far as I know, I am the only transgender person from my quite large graduating high school class. How do team-based sports work for transgender students who are able to come out at that age?

(April 3, 2017 at 11:27 am)Jesster Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 11:08 am)ukatheist Wrote: I can see where you are coming from with this, but idk if it's the right solution. I don't think it get the balance right between competitive fairness and the trans persons rights to gender determination. To me it seems a bit like telling a trans person they are not male/female enough to properly compete as a male/female. Also don't know if there are enough trans athletes to actually make a worthwhile competition (maybe at national levels, but when you get down to school/college level you might only have one or two trans athletes in any given competition).

I think a better solution would be to scrap events based on gender altogether and group according to ability, so you'll have a mix of genders in all events. Kinda like the way disability is grouped into different classes at the paras maybe?

You make some strong points. While there might be some amount of merit for Tiberius's suggestion on a national or international level, it certainly doesn't cover smaller local areas. As far as I know, I am the only transgender person from my quite large graduating high school class. How do team-based sports work for transgender students who are able to come out at that age?

Yeah, that is clearly a different issue. I agree. However, we already bend the rules for kids when it comes to mixing genders in sports (kids tend to be on a more level playing field when they're young, regardless of gender). I imagine that could be left up the school, parent and student in any given situation. I think creating an actual law about it would be difficult, but I see no reason states can't try to develop/pass laws on it.

What if we took gender out of it by calling the groupings Y (as in chromosome) and X, or non-Y? I.e., if you have a Y chromosome in there somewhere, you compete in the Y group.

(April 3, 2017 at 11:54 am)alpha male Wrote: What if we took gender out of it by calling the groupings Y (as in chromosome) and X, or non-Y? I.e., if you have a Y chromosome in there somewhere, you compete in the Y group.

The transitioning transwomen athletes are taking a bunch of medications that put them at a disadvantage.  And the transitioning transmen are taking a bunch of medications that put them at an advantage.

So it's not really fair to transwomen, or ciswomen.

(April 3, 2017 at 11:27 am)Jesster Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 11:08 am)ukatheist Wrote: I can see where you are coming from with this, but idk if it's the right solution. I don't think it get the balance right between competitive fairness and the trans persons rights to gender determination. To me it seems a bit like telling a trans person they are not male/female enough to properly compete as a male/female. Also don't know if there are enough trans athletes to actually make a worthwhile competition (maybe at national levels, but when you get down to school/college level you might only have one or two trans athletes in any given competition).

I think a better solution would be to scrap events based on gender altogether and group according to ability, so you'll have a mix of genders in all events. Kinda like the way disability is grouped into different classes at the paras maybe?

You make some strong points. While there might be some amount of merit for Tiberius's suggestion on a national or international level, it certainly doesn't cover smaller local areas. As far as I know, I am the only transgender person from my quite large graduating high school class. How do team-based sports work for transgender students who are able to come out at that age?

High school athletics just don't have the same importance as national / international events. Do high schools test students for performance enhancing drugs? Not likely. For some team based sports, it won't matter at all. The ice-hockey teams in my area are mixed sex already, for example.

(April 3, 2017 at 11:54 am)alpha male Wrote: What if we took gender out of it by calling the groupings Y (as in chromosome) and X, or non-Y? I.e., if you have a Y chromosome in there somewhere, you compete in the Y group.

...I fail to see how that solves anything. An FtM would be taking testosterone and be competing against females, for example.

(April 3, 2017 at 12:07 pm)wallym Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 11:54 am)alpha male Wrote: What if we took gender out of it by calling the groupings Y (as in chromosome) and X, or non-Y? I.e., if you have a Y chromosome in there somewhere, you compete in the Y group.

The transitioning transwomen athletes are taking a bunch of medications that put them at a disadvantage.

They can stop if they want. Depends what's more important to them.

Quote:And the transitioning transmen are taking a bunch of medications that put them at an advantage.

Medications that give an advantage are already regulated.

(April 3, 2017 at 12:12 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 12:07 pm)wallym Wrote: The transitioning transwomen athletes are taking a bunch of medications that put them at a disadvantage.

They can stop if they want. Depends what's more important to them.

Quote:And the transitioning transmen are taking a bunch of medications that put them at an advantage.

Medications that give an advantage are already regulated.

Making transgender people choose between sports and transitioning is not an ideal solution, socially speaking.  

But I think in the end, there just might not be a good solution that addresses both social and competitive aspects of sports.