(April 3, 2017 at 4:09 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

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OK I certainly don't want to come off being overly dramatic or overreactive, only to discuss. Maybe you can enlight me about this. Some may know I would mention the ongoing christian war on women in those news topics, but now I saw a book that made me open a dedicated topic. The book is described on Amazon page "Praised by the Vatican!".

Title of the book is "Marry Him and Be Submissive" by catholic woman living in Italy named Costanza Miriano and translated on couple of languages, or should I say in all catholic countries.
The book is based on misogynistic lines in the Bible by St. Paul which your everyday Christians (Catholics) usually ignore and pretend it doesn't exist or delude themselves that they mean something else. Like "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."

This book "Marry Him and Be Submissive" is taking this seriously. Now I didn't read the book but I did a little research and it seems Catholics are defending it that it is more then a title and that it says women should not endure beatings from the husband in her submission to him.

Sure, but there is more way to discriminate human being then beatings. Is this book discriminating toward women? It seems to me. Like I said I didn't read it but let's look at the research and decide together.

From the description on Amazon:

"Whether to keep waiting to get married (No! Dive in! You ll never be 100% ready. )"

Really? You'll never be 100% ready means you're ready regarding the education and career? Yeap, pretty submissive.

"How to stop worrying about all the cushy first world problems and embrace the true joys of family life (even if it means cutting back on Facebook a little)"

To me this sounds like "Get into kitchen, you don't need to understand about world's problems because you're a woman and you don't matter"

"Miriano boldly, playfully, and profoundly takes the lives and loves of modern women head on, and shows how true marital happiness and holiness is found in submission. And she shows how submission real, true submission, which is about love, humility, and support will lead you to salvation. Far from belittling women, it empowers them (and their families) in ways that secular feminism can only dream of."

Yikes!

And even honest reviewers who liked the book wrote: "This is not about being a carpet, is only to follow the suggestion by St. Paul and leave the lead to the husband, who immediately would react loving even more the wife."


From the interviews with the writer Costanza Miriano, that are awailable online, it seems to get even worse:

"Also, just as Mary, with her feet, kills the serpent, so must I kill my tongue — because I don’t always have to comment, to criticize my husband. So he said in that way I could be a good wife — not that I had to be submissive for the sake of being submissive, but because I had to stop being so critical, so unbearable, as I was at the beginning of marriage."

Oh so that's what that "misunderstanding" about the title of being subbmisive is. She's only submissive because she realised she has to shut up? wtf?

"Yes, because I think feminists chose the wrong ways to affirm women, to empower women, because we adopted the masculine way. We tried to become like men, and we are not men, so we don’t need power, strength or independence. We are different. But we are not happy [because of feminism]. I know of many women who have power, success in their careers, but at the end of the day, they’re not happy, deep down."

Well this sums it down, doesn't it?

"I think, at the beginning, feminism was just like a request: We needed to be looked on by someone else, we needed someone else’s eyes on us, and when we asked for this, we asked for attention, someone to tell us we are beautiful, we are lovely. So at the beginning, feminism was a request about our looks, and it was like a spring, because women wanted to be seen. But then we adopted men’s strategies, and we lost our path — because we call abortion a “right,” the right of killing our children, to kill through using contraception."

"If we have to define a woman, the most appropriate image is a room for other people."

Again, I can't see how this book can turn out to be positive in any way.


To summon this up. I could go on with her ramblings but I think I got out what her book is about - if I'm wrong maybe someone can correct me.

I know what some of you may think "So what? Who cares, it's only a book." - yes, but like I wrote in the beginning that it is praised by Vatican which means that this book is advertised prominently in every Catholic church by people they consider the highest authority and Catholic newspapers, magazines for women to take this seriously.

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This is one of those topics, that can go wrong in both directions.   On one hand, you have those who will abuse it, those who will use it for their own purposes and desires.  On the other hand, their is the modern trend, to be immediately repulsed by the thought of submission in any reference.   I think that they both make the same mistake.   Submission is not a bad thing, and they look at submission from the wrong direction.   Many who are a little more notice a growing issue, in youth, where they are not taught any submission.   And any decent preacher cannot talk about this topic, without a whole host of prefaces and a mini-sermon on what it means for men to love their wives.

There is also the context, that in this same passage, we are told to submit to each other.  We are told to submit to authority.  And then the one that garners instant outrage, wives are told to submit to their husbands.  Submission is not a bad thing.  It is on the other side of submission, that the problem arises.

As to this review... I'm on the fence.   There are a couple of things that cause a little bit of alert.  But not enough to say it is definitely unhealthy.  Some of the allusions are a bit questionable, and I may question some of her ideas on feminism from the comments.   So I'm unsure about the book.  But I'm concerned about both distortions of the view of submission; both those rallying for or against it (for the wrong reasons).

(April 3, 2017 at 9:49 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: There is also the context, that in this same passage, we are told to submit to each other. 

Yowzah! I'm down with that!

(April 3, 2017 at 9:22 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 8:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Maybe.  Maybe not.

The evidence for "paul" is as shaky as the evidence for jesus.

Boils down to somebody retconned, rewrote and revised somebody else.  Attributing the heretical displacement of the 'Biblical Jesus' message to the hands of 'Biblical Paul' is rather more devastating to the advocates of Biblical truth than attribution to a 'flock' of anonymous scribes, no ??


[snicker]

Indeed.  And it is not even well done.

2 Corinthians for example seems to be a pastiche of several letters rolled up into one.  Now.  Who would do such a thing?

It's not just a Christian thing. It comes up in all of the Abrahamic religions where women are considered inferior.

Any relationship should be a partnership, not a master/slave relationship.

If a woman or man wants to be submissive, fine. Don't expect me to be.

And so Neo and Road come to desperately say oh no no this is what the bible really says according to me that other group of Christians have it wrong and vice versa

The bible

I think the relevant passage here is Ephesisans 2:22-23:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

As I recall Jesus Christ was tortured and died on the cross for our sake. So while wives are admonished to respect their husbands, husbands are called upon to sacrifice themselves even to the point of death for the sake of their wives and to love them as a very part of themselves. That is a heavy responsibility for any man.

(April 3, 2017 at 9:22 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 8:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Maybe.  Maybe not.

The evidence for "paul" is as shaky as the evidence for jesus.

Boils down to somebody retconned, rewrote and revised somebody else.  Attributing the heretical displacement of the 'Biblical Jesus' message to the hands of 'Biblical Paul' is rather more devastating to the advocates of Biblical truth than attribution to a 'flock' of anonymous scribes, no ??


[snicker]

My money's on Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus.

Yeah, my wife's so oppressed, hanging out at home while I work 70 hours a week. 

(April 4, 2017 at 10:02 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: So while wives are admonished to respect their husbands, husbands are called upon to sacrifice themselves even to the point of death for the sake of their wives and to love them as a very part of themselves. That is a heavy responsibility for any man.

Unfortunately that doesn't work. While in theory it may look like it could work that woman is closed in the house wiping floors and cooking while husband is bravely earning money it does not work out. Indeed the most famous case is of Turks living in Germany that hold their wives locked in the apartment, never to get out. And even Costanza Miriano is aware of it when she said in the interview: "the main problem for men is selfishness. They don’t want to die for the family, they want to have a part of life that’s separate, to save something [for themselves]." her solution is to be even more submissive to the man: "We have to give that good image. When a man feels he’s looked upon in that way, he wants to die, to give his life. If we stop complaining, stop criticizing, stop saying: 'You're not worth my life,'"

Women that have no education like that (not to mention rights to work) are vulnerable. Even if a woman finds a good guy that will take care of her and children like that, it all crumbles down if that husband dies or if he becomes abusive, alcoholic, sick, invalid and so on. She is then to jump desperately to another marriage so she can feed the kids. And also women in bad marriages like the ones of abusive and alcoholic husband are encouraged by (catholic) priests to stay married no matter what.

That is if she's allowed to choose, but in societies where women are so degraded that their sole existence is marriage we usually see girls are being married as children and sold as slaves. With that kind of viewpoint of women men quickly lose respect for them and to no wonder many harmful traditional practices sprouted from that like FGM; or their feet bound to make them more attractive to men (because as invalids they are likely to be more submissive); and that woman or girl's life is legally worth half that of a man's.

Other thing is that while there are women that are fine with that sort of living (heck there are even marriages where husband works at home and wife works) other require more intellectual stimulation and therefore suffer greatly in that kind of life where they can't have an intellectual education.
Subsequently since XX. century when women's education escalated their contribution to well-being of society trough science has greatly improved this world for all of us and therefore it would be unforgiving loss to just discard women's contribution in science, arts, journalism and other fields and make them into total disinterest in outside world - which is what church proscribes through this book. Especially when we live in a world where couples don't have to have 20 children in order for human race to survive.

(April 5, 2017 at 5:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Unfortunately that doesn't work. While in theory it may look like it could work that woman is closed in the house wiping floors and cooking while husband is bravely earning money it does not work out. Indeed the most famous case is of Turks living in Germany that hold their wives locked in the apartment, never to get out. And even Costanza Miriano is aware of it when she said in the interview: "the main problem for men is selfishness. They don’t want to die for the family, they want to have a part of life that’s separate, to save something [for themselves]." her solution is to be even more submissive to the man: "We have to give that good image. When a man feels he’s looked upon in that way, he wants to die, to give his life. If we stop complaining, stop criticizing, stop saying: 'You're not worth my life,'"

Women that have no education like that (not to mention rights to work) are vulnerable. Even if a woman finds a good guy that will take care of her and children like that, it all crumbles down if that husband dies or if he becomes abusive, alcoholic, sick, invalid and so on. She is then to jump desperately to another marriage so she can feed the kids. And also women in bad marriages like the ones of abusive and alcoholic husband are encouraged by (catholic) priests to stay married no matter what.

That's not the Biblical view of the woman's role. Consider Proverbs 31:10-31

10 Who can find a virtuous wife?
For her worth is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband safely trusts her;
So he will have no lack of gain.
12 She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.
13 She seeks wool and flax,
And willingly works with her hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
She brings her food from afar.
15 She also rises while it is yet night,
And provides food for her household,
And a portion for her maidservants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her profits she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength,
And strengthens her arms.
18 She perceives that her merchandise is good,
And her lamp does not go out by night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hand holds the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor,
Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of snow for her household,
For all her household is clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes tapestry for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies sashes for the merchants.
25 Strength and honor are her clothing;
She shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She opens her mouth with wisdom,
And on her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She watches over the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and call her blessed;
Her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many daughters have done well,
But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing,
But a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands,
And let her own works praise her in the gates.

She has multiple businesses. She owns real estate. Her husband trusts her to do well, so he doesn't need to direct her. 

The Biblical model of a wife isn't barefoot and chained to the stove.