(April 4, 2017 at 3:01 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(April 4, 2017 at 1:43 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Every christian has a caricature of christianity in their head that is not real.  The fact you think science is nonsense says a lot.  And christianity has been answering the tough questions all right.  But making up the answers doesn't count.

I do not think science is nonsense. I will be clearer for those that struggle: Christianity is on the rise across the world because it resonates with people. Atheists think they have a compelling message. They either suck at getting their message out, or, it is not as good of a message as they think (or both). 

People like GodlessHeatheness think that Christianity has not been answering all these objections for centuries and that somehow "science" will somehow shine through and illuminate the ignorant. That has simply not been the case (or is expected to). Most Christians do not fear science or any knowledge we can attain from many disciplines.

Of course christianity is compelling.  It's designed to be.  It's no different than a sales pitch.  It costs you nothing, and, at least in America, you don't have to think about it or change you behaviour.  You can keep all of your bigotries and prejudices because you can find a passage in the bible to support practically anything.  You have a whole new group of people to look down on and judge.  And you get to claim persecution on top of it!

Atheism is just facing up to reality.  It's not that easy for many people to do.  As far as
illuminating the ignorant", maybe you give the observation that there is no god too much credit.  And it seems not many believers even understand what science is.

(April 5, 2017 at 7:41 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(April 4, 2017 at 3:01 pm)SteveII Wrote: I do not think science is nonsense. I will be clearer for those that struggle: Christianity is on the rise across the world because it resonates with people. Atheists think they have a compelling message. They either suck at getting their message out, or, it is not as good of a message as they think (or both). 

People like GodlessHeatheness think that Christianity has not been answering all these objections for centuries and that somehow "science" will somehow shine through and illuminate the ignorant. That has simply not been the case (or is expected to). Most Christians do not fear science or any knowledge we can attain from many disciplines.

Of course christianity is compelling.  It's designed to be.  It's no different than a sales pitch.  It costs you nothing, and, at least in America, you don't have to think about it or change you behaviour.[1]  You can keep all of your bigotries and prejudices because you can find a passage in the bible to support practically anything.  You have a whole new group of people to look down on and judge.  And you get to claim persecution on top of it! [2]

Atheism is just facing up to reality.  It's not that easy for many people to do.  As far as
illuminating the ignorant", maybe you give the observation that there is no god too much credit.  And it seems not many believers even understand what science is. [3]

1. That indicates that you don't distinguish between a nominal Christian and a practicing Christian. A Christian should be seeking to (all from the NT): 

a. Has an undiluted devotion to Jesus. 
b. Pursues a biblically informed view of the world.
c. Is intentional and disciplined in seeking God's direction in life.
d. Worships, and has a spirit of continuous repentance.
e. Builds healthy, reciprocal human relationships.
f. Knows how to engage the larger world where faith is not necessarily understood.
g. Is aware of personal "call" and unique competencies.
h. Is merciful and generous.
i. Appreciates that suffering is part of faithfulness to Jesus.
j. Is eager and ready to express the content of his faith. 
k. Overflows with thankfulness.
l. Has a passion for reconciliation.

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors...stian.html

2. You are describing decidedly non-christian responses to external factors.

3. Your complaint with with a small group of people and NOT Christianity. Your reasoning is flawed: fallacy of composition.

(March 25, 2017 at 2:02 am)godlessheatheness Wrote: I grew up being told that we celebrated Christmas for the big guys birthday. Easter for the rising from the dead or whatever and Halloween is evil. 

My father may not have taken me to church but he did make sure to tell me every lie that I grew up thinking. I never questioned what they did, it was just their thing. I questioned the Christmas thing in my teen years, then Easter, and Now I'm questioning more than ever. I feel more than betrayed honestly, I honestly fear for my loved ones that buy into everything that Christianity is. Because everything I used to think was not a big deal and everything they believe with all of their hearts are lies! 

I've been studying the bible (Mostly by listening to other atheists read it and make fun of it. I'm a single mom I have no time to read.) and a lot of the stories are stolen and retold to fit the book, they have stolen ideas, they stole logos and used them to push their fucking agenda. They've even stolen holidays. 

Christmas wasn't their thing until after they banned it for not being christian and then they just twisted it in their own ways to try and make it all about them, to the point where now they tell their kids that the true meaning of Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus. Which is ridiculous because if they knew how the original Christmas was celebrated it would be considered just as evil as they think Halloween is, which, don't quote me, I'm pretty sure comes from christian roots and has absolutely nothing to do with "the devil's birthday." 


I straight up heard somebody say that thanking people was rooted in Christianity, gathering groups of people is a Christian thing, There's so much BS to smell here it's amazing that most of them don't smell it.

My dad likes to say that he fears I will burn in hell but I don't think he realizes I fear for him. I feel like he has been brainwashed and there's no fixing it. Same goes for the rest of his family (somebody pointed out to me that I refer to my dad's family as his family and not mine and that they are still my family but the truth is they have never given me a reason to feel loved. and I feel like family is a more personal thing, if you're going to make me feel like an outcast and then expect me to trust, respect, and love you? uh no thanks.) 

Anyway I guess the point of this rant is that I've been learning a lot and I feel totally betrayed and like my family is being betrayed before my eyes and I can't do anything to save them from themselves. 
I guess I'm done ranting. 
    

I rail and rant and take no prisoners when it comes to any religion, but in debate, blasphemy and ridicule only. Our species unfortunately 99% sells the next generation at birth the religion of their parents. It isn't that most humans do that to be evil, it is because most humans get sold a religion from birth before they can formulate adult critical thinking skills.

The unfortunate reality is that the "betrayal" is not that humans are mostly evil, the "betrayal" is that evolution itself produces false perceptions. Those false perceptions can lead to large groups that over time can become successful but still totally be based on that false perception.

Our species evolved to form groups because we are social, so when we set up a social order that group does not like its social order challenged even if the group is centered around completely false claims. The ancient Egyptians were successful for 3,000 years centered around the false beliefs of their polytheistic gods that never existed. 

This unfortunately is evolutionary. Life evolved with fight or flight, and life did not always have the ability to slow down, compare and contrast. Our brains evolved to gap fill. We do it all the time, every day without realizing it. It is why you can walk around your house with your keys in your hands and still think you don't know where they are. It is also why a bird can slam itself into a hot desert road and break it's neck because it falsely sees the heatwaves as pools of water. 

Humans are in reality simply projecting their own qualities on the world around them. By protecting human qualities on non human events it gives you a false sense of control over your environment. If falsely gives one the impression that you can bargain with another human like entity with super powers in order to avoid harm and gain benefit.

(April 4, 2017 at 12:12 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 5:29 pm)Lek Wrote: Obviously you have a number of relationship problems with your family and are very bitter.  Do you feel that your Dad was just passing on to you his sincerely held beliefs about christianity, or did he really not believe it himself and purposely lied to you?  They are two very different situations.  
Are your family's christian beliefs the whole source of the problem or is it a combination of many things?  Also, if you're getting all your bible study from atheists, of course you're not going to believe it.  If you're really want to view the bible objectively, I suggest you balance out your study with some christian take on it as well.

Isn't that a contradiction?

Not at all. If you want to be objective you should consider both sides to an argument.

(April 5, 2017 at 8:25 am)SteveII Wrote:

(April 5, 2017 at 7:41 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: Of course christianity is compelling.  It's designed to be.  It's no different than a sales pitch.  It costs you nothing, and, at least in America, you don't have to think about it or change you behaviour.[1]  You can keep all of your bigotries and prejudices because you can find a passage in the bible to support practically anything.  You have a whole new group of people to look down on and judge.  And you get to claim persecution on top of it! [2]

Atheism is just facing up to reality.  It's not that easy for many people to do.  As far as
illuminating the ignorant", maybe you give the observation that there is no god too much credit.  And it seems not many believers even understand what science is. [3]

1. That indicates that you don't distinguish between a nominal Christian and a practicing Christian. A Christian should be seeking to (all from the NT): 

a. Has an undiluted devotion to Jesus. 
b. Pursues a biblically informed view of the world.
c. Is intentional and disciplined in seeking God's direction in life.
d. Worships, and has a spirit of continuous repentance.
e. Builds healthy, reciprocal human relationships.
f. Knows how to engage the larger world where faith is not necessarily understood.
g. Is aware of personal "call" and unique competencies.
h. Is merciful and generous.
i. Appreciates that suffering is part of faithfulness to Jesus.
j. Is eager and ready to express the content of his faith. 
k. Overflows with thankfulness.
l. Has a passion for reconciliation.

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors...stian.html

2. You are describing decidedly non-christian responses to external factors.

3. Your complaint with with a small group of people and NOT Christianity. Your reasoning is flawed: fallacy of composition.

No, my complaint is with 1. american christianity, which seems to be just a way to justify hatred, bigotry, greed and ego, and 2. people like you who decide who are the "real" christians by cherry picking the bible.

---

(April 5, 2017 at 12:04 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 4, 2017 at 12:12 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Isn't that a contradiction?

Not at all.  If you want to be objective you should consider both sides to an argument.

Christians are not objective about the bible.  Atheists are.

(March 25, 2017 at 2:02 am)godlessheatheness Wrote: I grew up being told that we celebrated Christmas for the big guys birthday. Easter for the rising from the dead or whatever and Halloween is evil. 

My father may not have taken me to church but he did make sure to tell me every lie that I grew up thinking. I never questioned what they did, it was just their thing. I questioned the Christmas thing in my teen years, then Easter, and Now I'm questioning more than ever. I feel more than betrayed honestly, I honestly fear for my loved ones that buy into everything that Christianity is. Because everything I used to think was not a big deal and everything they believe with all of their hearts are lies! 

I've been studying the bible (Mostly by listening to other atheists read it and make fun of it. I'm a single mom I have no time to read.) and a lot of the stories are stolen and retold to fit the book, they have stolen ideas, they stole logos and used them to push their fucking agenda. They've even stolen holidays. 

Christmas wasn't their thing until after they banned it for not being christian and then they just twisted it in their own ways to try and make it all about them, to the point where now they tell their kids that the true meaning of Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus. Which is ridiculous because if they knew how the original Christmas was celebrated it would be considered just as evil as they think Halloween is, which, don't quote me, I'm pretty sure comes from christian roots and has absolutely nothing to do with "the devil's birthday." 


I straight up heard somebody say that thanking people was rooted in Christianity, gathering groups of people is a Christian thing, There's so much BS to smell here it's amazing that most of them don't smell it.

My dad likes to say that he fears I will burn in hell but I don't think he realizes I fear for him. I feel like he has been brainwashed and there's no fixing it. Same goes for the rest of his family (somebody pointed out to me that I refer to my dad's family as his family and not mine and that they are still my family but the truth is they have never given me a reason to feel loved. and I feel like family is a more personal thing, if you're going to make me feel like an outcast and then expect me to trust, respect, and love you? uh no thanks.) 

Anyway I guess the point of this rant is that I've been learning a lot and I feel totally betrayed and like my family is being betrayed before my eyes and I can't do anything to save them from themselves. 
I guess I'm done ranting. 
    

It's real simple

In Christ we are free to keep whatever day we like and mark it as a holy day to commemorate whatever we like. we must simply dedicate to God.

Here's a more detailed explanation from Paul to the Romans:
14:1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
    every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]

(April 4, 2017 at 3:01 pm)SteveII Wrote: I do not think science is nonsense. I will be clearer for those that struggle: Christianity is on the rise across the world because it resonates with people. Atheists think they have a compelling message. They either suck at getting their message out, or, it is not as good of a message as they think (or both). 

People like GodlessHeatheness think that Christianity has not been answering all these objections for centuries and that somehow "science" will somehow shine through and illuminate the ignorant. That has simply not been the case (or is expected to). Most Christians do not fear science or any knowledge we can attain from many disciplines.

Christianity is dying in the more advanced parts of the world, where I was christened is now a pub for example. and that is the case for lots of churches in the UK. It may be growing where you are but that is not representative.

Quote:Some key findings from the Church Statistics1 report are:

1. UK Church membership has declined from 10.6 million in 1930 to 5.5 Million in 2010, or as a percentage of the population; from about 30% to 11.2%.
   By 2013, this had declined further to 5.4 million (10.3%). If current trends continue, membership will fall to 8.4% of the population by 2025.2
   
   
2. In England, membership is forecast to decline to 2.53 million (4.3% of the population) by 2025.

(April 5, 2017 at 2:40 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Christianity is dying in the more advanced parts of the world, where I was christened is now a pub for example. and that is the case for lots of churches in the UK. It may be growing where you are but that is not representative.

The "advanced" parts of the world are becoming less relevant as nations in Asia, where christianity is growing in leaps and bounds, become more advanced and are closing the standard of living and technology gaps with the western world. The western world came to prominence as christian majority nations.

(April 5, 2017 at 2:02 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(April 5, 2017 at 8:25 am)SteveII Wrote: 1. That indicates that you don't distinguish between a nominal Christian and a practicing Christian. A Christian should be seeking to (all from the NT): 

a. Has an undiluted devotion to Jesus. 
b. Pursues a biblically informed view of the world.
c. Is intentional and disciplined in seeking God's direction in life.
d. Worships, and has a spirit of continuous repentance.
e. Builds healthy, reciprocal human relationships.
f. Knows how to engage the larger world where faith is not necessarily understood.
g. Is aware of personal "call" and unique competencies.
h. Is merciful and generous.
i. Appreciates that suffering is part of faithfulness to Jesus.
j. Is eager and ready to express the content of his faith. 
k. Overflows with thankfulness.
l. Has a passion for reconciliation.

From http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors...stian.html

2. You are describing decidedly non-christian responses to external factors.

3. Your complaint with with a small group of people and NOT Christianity. Your reasoning is flawed: fallacy of composition.

No, my complaint is with 1. american christianity, which seems to be just a way to justify hatred, bigotry, greed and ego, and 2. people like you who decide who are the "real" christians by cherry picking the bible.

There is no way you could justify that argument. You have simply restated your assertion and thrown in an atheist bullet point in case it applied. Go ahead, try. What is the matter with the list I proposed? What personal instructions for living did I leave out (and therefore cherry-picked)? No way you are even going to try (based on your inch-deep posts/objections to Christianity I have had the pleasure of reading from you thus far), but I thought it worth pointing it out.

(April 5, 2017 at 3:34 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 5, 2017 at 2:40 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Christianity is dying in the more advanced parts of the world, where I was christened is now a pub for example. and that is the case for lots of churches in the UK. It may be growing where you are but that is not representative.

The "advanced" parts of the world are becoming less relevant as nations in Asia, where christianity is growing in leaps and bounds, become more advanced and are closing the standard of living and technology gaps with the western world.  The western world came to prominence as christian majority nations.

Yes the massive growth in countries like Japan where it is an amazing 2% of the population or China where it is 3%.

There are over 30 countries in Asia and only 6 of those have more than 40% Christian populations.

With some having so few that there is the data has them as having 0% Christians and 20 countries having less than 10%.