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Divinity · April 13, 2017 at 4:59 pm

Most medical experts agree. I think that's plenty of evidence. Enough for IOC--and their requirements are pretty fucking stringent considering they banned 'excessive coffee drinking' and cough medicines.

Shell B · April 13, 2017 at 5:15 pm

"Most medical experts agree" is the kind of thing you hear in an infomercial. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying don't expect to convince anyone with that. Also, I understand it's not your job to convince me. I'm just sitting on the fence here and no one has a good enough swing to knock me off it.

**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: April 13, 2017 at 6:45 pm by The Grand Nudger.)

At some point you might have to wonder whether or not any swing could knock you off that fence. Is the idea that men have nonspecific and immutable advantages so thoroughly ingrained that you'll always feel as though there's an issue, no matter how much research and lit tells you there's not?

Shell B · April 13, 2017 at 7:10 pm

(April 13, 2017 at 6:44 pm)Khemikal Wrote: At some point you might have to wonder whether or not any swing could knock you off that fence. Is the idea that men have nonspecific and immutable advantages so thoroughly ingrained that you'll always feel as though there's an issue, no matter how much research and lit tells you there's not?

You have to wonder if at some point someone will provide evidence instead of just jumping to the conclusion that I'm married to the idea that there's an issue, which I've also said I'm not convinced of. Don't make the mistake of thinking just because I think you saying so doesn't make something true means that I believe the opposite to be true.

Nonspecific? Come on, dude.

**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: April 13, 2017 at 9:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)

Yeah, non specific. Because these advantages, if they aren't hormonal, muscular, or skeletal...and those have been ruled out by research, by the commissions who decide the rules, and by direct examples in all of these trans sports threads...what are they? As a bonus, where are they when trans athletes lose?

**Tiberius** · April 13, 2017 at 9:12 pm

(April 13, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Divinity Wrote: Yes, I agree with the IOC.

If an athlete--born the gender they are competing as--has an advantage over other athletes (perceived or otherwise) nobody has any problem with allowing them to compete as that gender. It doesn't matter how big the advantage is. Maybe it's a very tall girl playing basketball. And I mean 6'4, not 5'10. The problem only rises when it involves an athlete who isn't Cisgender.

I think what people are really worried about is that male athletes will start to transition solely to compete in female athletics. (Well, at least the ones that aren't just transphobic). I mean maybe they're not quite good enough at their current level. However, medical experts seem to agree that after a year on hormone replacement therapy the advantage disappears. They lose muscle mass, bone density, and strength.

People say "It's unfair to women" ignoring that these trans MTF are women.

What about FTM men? Do you think it is fair for them to compete against cisgender men?

I_am_not_mafia · April 14, 2017 at 4:26 am

(April 13, 2017 at 9:12 pm)Tiberius Wrote:
(April 13, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Divinity Wrote: Yes, I agree with the IOC.

If an athlete--born the gender they are competing as--has an advantage over other athletes (perceived or otherwise) nobody has any problem with allowing them to compete as that gender. It doesn't matter how big the advantage is. Maybe it's a very tall girl playing basketball. And I mean 6'4, not 5'10. The problem only rises when it involves an athlete who isn't Cisgender.

I think what people are really worried about is that male athletes will start to transition solely to compete in female athletics. (Well, at least the ones that aren't just transphobic). I mean maybe they're not quite good enough at their current level. However, medical experts seem to agree that after a year on hormone replacement therapy the advantage disappears. They lose muscle mass, bone density, and strength.

People say "It's unfair to women" ignoring that these trans MTF are women.

What about FTM men? Do you think it is fair for them to compete against cisgender men?

I do. And that is also what they want.

Shell B · (This post was last modified: April 14, 2017 at 9:06 am by Shell B.)

TIL that Mathilda speaks for every trans man.

Khemical, I keep hearing people say, "Medical experts agree," but I don't see medical experts agreeing, so it's okay if that's enough for you. For me, I'm just going to wait it out. That doesn't mean I'm transphobic or have it ingrained in me. It just means you saying so doesn't make it so.

(April 13, 2017 at 9:03 pm)Khemikal Wrote: and by direct examples in all of these trans sports threads...what are they? As a bonus, where are they when trans athletes lose?

This is the first thread I've actually become more than passingly involved in, so referencing old threads isn't going to do it.

I don't know where they are. I don't start the threads. Feel free to point out some trans losses. I'm here. You're the one making a claim, so you know where the burden lies.

Divinity · April 14, 2017 at 9:23 am

(April 13, 2017 at 9:12 pm)Tiberius Wrote: What about FTM men? Do you think it is fair for them to compete against cisgender men?

As long as they are ruled not to have a competitive advantage due to any drugs and hormones they are taking as compared to a cisgender male.

I_am_not_mafia · (This post was last modified: April 14, 2017 at 10:12 am by I_am_not_mafia.)

(April 14, 2017 at 9:03 am)Shell B Wrote: TIL that Mathilda speaks for every trans man.

Find me an example of an FTM that does not want to compete against other men, or a MTF that does not want to compete against other women.

All you are doing is doubting everything without putting forward any reasons to. You even doubt the medical experts that are employed to study this but can state no justification for your doubts.

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that this is a result of an unconscious bias.

(April 14, 2017 at 9:03 am)Shell B Wrote: Feel free to point out some trans losses. I'm here. You're the one making a claim, so you know where the burden lies.

Already mentioned in this thread. Post op MTF have less testosterone than cisgendered women.

I actually think that you are the one making the claim by stating that there is doubt over the issue even when the experts employed by the IOC decide on a ruling. Yet you provide no evidence or justification.

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Poll: Do you agree with the IOC position on trans athletes? This poll is closed.
Yes, IOC has it right	30.00%	6	30.00%
No, if a trans person has an advantage, they shouldn't compete	45.00%	9	45.00%
Other	25.00%	5	25.00%
Total		20 vote(s)	100%

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