(April 12, 2017 at 10:33 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Thanks love. You're one of my favs here, but... ya know, I'm transphobic so maybe not lol.

(April 14, 2017 at 10:07 am)Khemikal Wrote: @Shell

Referencing old threads, scientific consensus, regulatory explanation, the ambiguity of this supposed advantage, and it's inability to secure a win even when present should.......however.

Continuing on Mathilda's example- It goes beyond testosterone levels to other hormones linked to performance.  Bone density loss, muscle loss, muscle fatigue.  In performance based stats (strength, speed, endurance) all are comparable or -lower- in MTF trans than in cis gendered women.  The weight of evidence and example is overwhelming.  There is no biological advantage.  None.  Whatever advantage there may be to being -male- is moot when the issue is post transition mtf, because everything that arguably gives males any advantage is negatively effected by transitioning.

(April 14, 2017 at 3:59 pm)Khemikal Wrote: More like a storm in a teacup, since it's not exactly a coincidence (massive or otherwise) that a weightlifter holds a weightlifting record.  When you refer to success that individuals have had as though this were success of mtf trans you're ignoring the vast majority, of that small minority, who have competed and not had any such success, or simply do not and could not compete at -any- level.  In essence, you're just saying:

"But, look, that one won something!", yes, we know, and?

What advantage of ftm trans over cis gendered females, in your opinion, accounts for that weightlifting record?   What never goes the other way, why does it matter...and what's the relevance of whatever small percentage those qualifying individuals may be?

(April 14, 2017 at 3:29 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Holy crap, I come back from a week off of Atheist forums and this is still going on.

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(April 14, 2017 at 10:07 am)Khemikal Wrote: @Shell

Referencing old threads, scientific consensus, regulatory explanation, the ambiguity of this supposed advantage, and it's inability to secure a win even when present should.......however.

Continuing on Mathilda's example- It goes beyond testosterone levels to other hormones linked to performance.  Bone density loss, muscle loss, muscle fatigue.  In performance based stats (strength, speed, endurance) all are comparable or -lower- in MTF trans than in cis gendered women.  The weight of evidence and example is overwhelming.  There is no biological advantage.  None.  Whatever advantage there may be to being -male- is moot when the issue is post transition mtf, because everything that arguably gives males any advantage is negatively effected by transitioning.

Then in your mind the success that trans-women have had in sports, for example shattering the weightlifting record, is a massive coincidence? Or the fact that it never goes the other way. This is a very small percentage of women. .3% identify as transgendered and only a small percentage of those have fully transitioned to the point that they would be allowed to compete according the rules.

(April 14, 2017 at 4:09 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(April 14, 2017 at 3:59 pm)Khemikal Wrote: More like a storm in a teacup, since it's not exactly a coincidence (massive or otherwise) that a weightlifter holds a weightlifting record.  When you refer to success that individuals have had as though this were success of mtf trans you're ignoring the vast majority, of that small minority, who have competed and not had any such success, or simply do not and could not compete at -any- level.  In essence, you're just saying:

"But, look, that one won something!", yes, we know, and?

What advantage of ftm trans over cis gendered females, in your opinion, accounts for that weightlifting record?   What never goes the other way, why does it matter...and what's the relevance of whatever small percentage those qualifying individuals may be?

No, it's not a coincidence that a weightlifter holds a weightlifting record, but that's not what people were upset about. It's the fact that she completely smashed the record. She lifted 41 pounds more than the person who came in 2nd place.

FYI, she is a MTF, not a FTM, competing against cisgender females. She also competed in weightlifting as a man. I'd say the advantage she has is the fact that she trained for weightlifting as a man, and clearly despite people's continued insistence that the transitioning process effectively negates any bone / muscle advantage, she still has some advantage, because she's lifting 41 pounds more than her nearest competitor.

(April 14, 2017 at 4:09 pm)Tiberius Wrote: No, it's not a coincidence that a weightlifter holds a weightlifting record, but that's not what people were upset about. It's the fact that she completely smashed the record. She lifted 41 pounds more than the person who came in 2nd place.

Quote:FYI, she is a MTF, not a FTM, competing against cisgender females.

Quote:She also competed in weightlifting as a man. I'd say the advantage she has is the fact that she trained for weightlifting as a man, and clearly despite people's continued insistence that the transitioning process effectively negates any bone / muscle advantage, she still has some advantage, because she's lifting 41 pounds more than her nearest competitor.

(April 15, 2017 at 2:41 pm)alpha male Wrote: http://www.eje-online.org/content/151/4/425.full.pdf

This study found that hormone therapy does decrease muscle mass in M-F, but they still end up with mean muscle mass significantly higher than in cis women.

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Quote:We may summarize as follows:
1. Testosterone exposure has profound effects on muscle mass and strength, justifying the practice that men and women compete in sports in separate categories.
2. The response to testosterone exposure in men is idiosyncratic; similar plasma levels of testosterone do not produce similar effects on muscle mass and strength.
3. The effects of cross-sex hormones in the dosages commonly used have reached their maximum effects after 1 year of administration.
4. In spite of a large difference in testosterone exposure between men and women, there is a large overlap of muscle area between them.
5. Androgen deprivation of men induces a loss of muscle area, further increasing this overlap with women.
6. Therefore, depending on the levels of arbitrariness one wants to accept, it is justifiable that reassigned M –F compete with other women.

Quote:http://www.caaws.ca/e/wp-content/uploads...eview2.pdf
This one said there's not enough research done to come to a conclusion.

Quote:Overall there is a paucity of data regarding the effect of transitioning on athletic performance. What performance data does exist was not taken from transitioned athletes; thus its applicability within an athletic population is uncertain. To date no study has conducted any sort of exercise test to assess athletic performance. The only study to have addressed transitioned athletes in competitive sport used a retrospective study design and considered muscle mass and Transitioned Athletes and Competition 16 haemoglobin content to be predictors of athletic prowess. Undoubtedly these factors do influence performance; however, in athletics the whole is greater than its parts and as such, performance during athletic events needs to be assessed. While to date the data available does not appear to suggest that transitioned athletes would compete at an advantage or disadvantage as compared with physically born men and women, there is not enough data available to fully substantiate this claim. Much more research needs to be conducted before a consensus can be made. However, due to the low prevalence of transitioned individuals in the population, conducting these studies will be challenging. Due to these complications we may never truly know whether transitioned athletes compete at an advantage or disadvantage as compared with physically born men and women. 

Quote:What's really interesting is that I got to these from the resources section of the NCAA policy statement, which requires M-F to be on hormoe therapy for one year to compete as women.
https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files..._Final.pdf

They allow it, but so far I haven't found a study, even in their own references (although I haven't checked all the links yet), that says there's no advantage.

(April 15, 2017 at 6:06 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(April 15, 2017 at 2:41 pm)alpha male Wrote: http://www.eje-online.org/content/151/4/425.full.pdf

This study found that hormone therapy does decrease muscle mass in M-F, but they still end up with mean muscle mass significantly higher than in cis women.

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The conclusion from this study, in 2004-

Quote:We may summarize as follows:
1. Testosterone exposure has profound effects on muscle mass and strength, justifying the practice that men and women compete in sports in separate categories.
2. The response to testosterone exposure in men is idiosyncratic; similar plasma levels of testosterone do not produce similar effects on muscle mass and strength.
3. The effects of cross-sex hormones in the dosages commonly used have reached their maximum effects after 1 year of administration.
4. In spite of a large difference in testosterone exposure between men and women, there is a large overlap of muscle area between them.
5. Androgen deprivation of men induces a loss of muscle area, further increasing this overlap with women.
6. Therefore, depending on the levels of arbitrariness one wants to accept, it is justifiable that reassigned M –F compete with other women.

b-mine

Quote:http://www.caaws.ca/e/wp-content/uploads...eview2.pdf
This one said there's not enough research done to come to a conclusion.

The conclusion from this study, in 2008....

Quote:Overall there is a paucity of data regarding the effect of transitioning on athletic performance. What performance data does exist was not taken from transitioned athletes; thus its applicability within an athletic population is uncertain. To date no study has conducted any sort of exercise test to assess athletic performance. The only study to have addressed transitioned athletes in competitive sport used a retrospective study design and considered muscle mass and Transitioned Athletes and Competition 16 haemoglobin content to be predictors of athletic prowess. Undoubtedly these factors do influence performance; however, in athletics the whole is greater than its parts and as such, performance during athletic events needs to be assessed. While to date the data available does not appear to suggest that transitioned athletes would compete at an advantage or disadvantage as compared with physically born men and women, there is not enough data available to fully substantiate this claim. Much more research needs to be conducted before a consensus can be made. However, due to the low prevalence of transitioned individuals in the population, conducting these studies will be challenging. Due to these complications we may never truly know whether transitioned athletes compete at an advantage or disadvantage as compared with physically born men and women. 

b-mine

Quote:What's really interesting is that I got to these from the resources section of the NCAA policy statement, which requires M-F to be on hormoe therapy for one year to compete as women.
https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files..._Final.pdf

They allow it, but so far I haven't found a study, even in their own references (although I haven't checked all the links yet), that says there's no advantage.

What did you find interesting about it?