(April 17, 2017 at 1:53 pm)alpha male Wrote: [edit]

No, it said that, among those studied, MTFs still have significantly higher mean muscle mass than cis women.

Then I question their sample of MTF's and cis-women.

Actually, it looked like most of the comparisons were not between transwomen and ciswomen, but rather between transwomen and not-transitioned transmen, which I found bizarre.

(April 17, 2017 at 1:56 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(April 17, 2017 at 1:53 pm)alpha male Wrote: [edit]

No, it said that, among those studied, MTFs still have significantly higher mean muscle mass than cis women.

Then I question their sample of MTF's and cis-women.

If fairness, rather than political correctness, were their goal, you'd think they would have commissioned multiple high-quality studies by now.

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(April 17, 2017 at 2:09 pm)Shell B Wrote: Actually, it looked like most of the comparisons were not between transwomen and ciswomen, but rather between transwomen and not-transitioned transmen, which I found bizarre.

Physiologically isn't a non-transitioned trans man the same as a cis woman?

(April 17, 2017 at 2:13 pm)alpha male Wrote: Physiologically isn't a non-transitioned trans man the same as a cis woman?

That's another thing that's hard to really say. It's uncertain what causes transgenderism, but there is a lot of evidence that suggests it's at least as biological as it is psychological. Since it's subtle and hard to define, it's tough to say whether there is a difference between F-M transgender individuals and cis females. If I had to guess, I'd say there were. We know brain structure is different. Development in the womb may be different. I don't for a second think the sum of transgenderism is psychological and then later in treatment hormonal.

I think they should allow middle aged men to compete with the women. They would have an advantage over me but I'd have fun seeing them run in front of me.

(April 17, 2017 at 2:13 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(April 17, 2017 at 1:56 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Then I question their sample of MTF's and cis-women.

If fairness, rather than political correctness, were their goal, you'd think they would have commissioned multiple high-quality studies by now.

Let's see, monozyotic male twins, both at the same physical level, both same sport athletes and one wants to trans. The number of available subjects must just be astounding. Simply falling out of the closet. 

Or, it just doesn't matter, except to people who will never compete against them. How many cis women athletes refuse to compete if a trans woman is entered in an event? They are the only people for whom it should matter and I don't see many/any up in arms.

(April 17, 2017 at 4:51 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(April 17, 2017 at 2:13 pm)alpha male Wrote: If fairness, rather than political correctness, were their goal, you'd think they would have commissioned multiple high-quality studies by now.

Let's see, monozyotic male twins, both at the same physical level, both same sport athletes and one wants to trans. The number of available subjects must just be astounding. Simply falling out of the closet. 

Or, it just doesn't matter, except to people who will never compete against them. How many cis women athletes refuse to compete if a trans woman is entered in an event? They are the only people for whom it should matter and I don't see many/any up in arms.

http://www.out.com/sports/2015/7/16/ufc-...fallon-fox

Fallon Fox is the best example. A lot of MMA fighters are reluctant to fight her. Even the best feel like she's dangerous in the ring. Rousey isn't the only one, IIRC.

So Shell B, is it right to say that you have absolutely no position on this, nothing to say about the subject and for all you know, the IOC could just as easily be correct as wrong?

Because if not then you are just trying to avoid stating a case or providing any evidence and are avoiding the burden of proof.

At what point would you be happy to see MTF transsexuals compete against cisgendered women? If at all?

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(April 17, 2017 at 2:27 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(April 17, 2017 at 2:13 pm)alpha male Wrote: Physiologically isn't a non-transitioned trans man the same as a cis woman?

That's another thing that's hard to really say. It's uncertain what causes transgenderism, but there is a lot of evidence that suggests it's at least as biological as it is psychological. Since it's subtle and hard to define, it's tough to say whether there is a difference between F-M transgender individuals and cis females. If I had to guess, I'd say there were. We know brain structure is different. Development in the womb may be different. I don't for a second think the sum of transgenderism is psychological and then later in treatment hormonal.

Brain structure of FTM transsexuals is more similar to cisgendered women than cisgendered men, despite their upbringing. This has been known for a long time now, and can even be scanned for now while the person is still alive.

Current best theories suggest the exposure of hormone 'washes' in the womb as the cause. Remember that a fetus will start off female and end up male. But it is a non linear process.

Hell, I wouldn't fight that gal and I has black belts.

(April 17, 2017 at 5:11 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Remember that a fetus will start off female and end up male. But it is a non linear process.

Not that it's all too relevant, but this is simply not true. A person's biological sex is determined at conception by the presence or absence of the y chromosome. Males were never female in the womb.