Ok here is a claim:

All religions believe in the need of founding Captains that build the foundations of the ship to steer society on course to justice be they Buddas, Avatars, Prophets, Shamans, demi-gods or whatever they been called, including the word "Leaders" (Imams) in Quran in the sense that they ought to be followed and not simply are followed.

Books obviously in the world don't all agree. They don't. Holy books are not in unison. So this says they have changed. And reason dictates before being able to shift authority from God there has to be misinterpretation of the book. That people misinterpret or blind themselves to some of the holy scriptures, believing in some parts and believing in others.

As time goes on, and the followers of truth try to maintain and argue by reasoning to the true interpretation, the books themselves go through change.

Now while I find through investigating all these religions is that therein is still and it cannot be hidden in any of these religions, the necessity of guidance of God.

We are in constant need of guidance from God. Now if we leave this to be subjective, with no clear evidence, there is little room for discussion and it's all about individuals finding the door through inner self journey.

Now while all that is well and good, but at the same time, humanity we all believe has to govern and act upon goodness and morality. If God reminds us of the best course in the past through Navigators of the just city (in the words of Socrates), then aren't we in need of that now.

Now all societies can claim they are waiting for the awaited navigator and captain to be born or come back, but the problem is, we need to know and prepare for him obviously and these needs a legacy of knowledge to hold on to from his predecessors.

The number of predecessors to be is vital to be manifested by God and there also has to be a safeguard by God to have only one set of predecessors according to this number.

I believe you can in almost all religions find hints that this number was manifested by God.

For example, the Quran talks about the statues built by Solomon. We know these were twelve Lions like the world has never seen. What does this mean?

To me it is clear in the bible there was a lot of work to down play the issue of Twelve to be just linked to twelve tribes of Israel. And in fact twelve tribes of Israel was made by God so that the number of successors to Moses would not be lost totally from those who try to hide it, because, they would have a "different" interpretation.

But when for example God gave Aeron the twelve on his breast plate, I believe that Israelites weren't separated to tribes as God never promotes tribalism in this sense, but rather it was meant to show the succession, the grandchildren and lineage linked back to Aeron and including Aeron, to be of twelve Leaders.

The Quran says "By the name of God is it steering and anchoring...." and "we gave them clear proofs in the affair (regarding people of Moses)" and "And we took the covenant of the children of Israel and rose from them twelve Captains...."

And regarding the religious leadership says "Do they have a share in the authority? For they would not give the people a date seed." and reminds of the family of Abraham to emphasize the authority of the Messenger and those who possess the authority from this nation.... that there is no authority but the great authority linked to God in his chosen pure ones.....


Would God be inconsistent with this number? But reason dictates he would be consistent, as it would be easier to safeguard and emphasize that the number has been emphasized on with respect to leadership and succession to the founding Captains of each Rising Illumination Year.

The other issue is the book cannot be something that cannot be unveiled by discussion among humans to beyond human. It has to be more then something that only inviduals can see individually through holy experience, because the latter would make it highly improbable and decrease the chance of humans agreeing.

The other is that the nature of morality if God is the Truest Morality, the it's connection to him must also be a living entity. The Quran emphasizes the LEADER is a human, not a concept, not a set of rules and dogmas, but real living loving being, which is known as the witness of the people of the era per Quran.

These teachings make sense and when looking into the 2nd witness to Jesus being Elijah, we see there is this emphasis in the bible as well.

And we see some places hints of the number Twelve being super significant at point and it is like a great part of the bible was simply to downgrade the significance.

I would say tribes in a people has no significance, we can always link back to a different set of grandparents, more than twelve, going back generations or going down generation, so it's really arbitrary.

So the real emphasis on twelve and the Priest office seems like the Quran unveils to be about the covenant of how to hold to the ship of Noah and be steered by Captains who steer by the name of God.

This is from the perspective of a few verses. Many arguments will follow!

(April 23, 2017 at 1:31 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Ok here is a claim:

All religions believe in the need of founding Captains that build the foundations of the ship to steer society on course to justice be they Buddas, Avatars, Prophets, Shamans, demi-gods or whatever they been called, including the word "Leaders" (Imams) in Quran in the sense that they ought to be followed and not simply are followed.

Books obviously in the world don't all agree. They don't. Holy books are not in unison. So this says they have changed. And reason dictates before being able to shift authority from God there has to be misinterpretation of the book. That people misinterpret or blind themselves to some of the holy scriptures, believing in some parts and believing in others.

As time goes on, and the followers of truth try to maintain and argue by reasoning to the true interpretation, the books themselves go through change.

Now while I find through investigating all these religions is that therein is still and it cannot be hidden in any of these religions, the necessity of guidance of God.

We are in constant need of guidance from God.  Now if we leave this to be subjective, with no clear evidence, there is little room for discussion and it's all about individuals finding the door through inner self journey.

Now while all that is well and good, but at the same time, humanity we all believe has to govern and act upon goodness and morality. If God reminds us of the best course in the past through Navigators of the just city (in the words of Socrates), then aren't we in need of that now.

Now all societies can claim they are waiting for the awaited navigator and captain to be born or come back, but the problem is, we need to know and prepare for him obviously and these needs a legacy of knowledge to hold on to from his predecessors.

The number of predecessors to be is vital to be manifested by God and there also has to be a safeguard by God to have only one set of predecessors according to this number.

I believe you can in almost all religions find hints that this number was manifested by God.

For example, the Quran talks about the statues built by Solomon. We know these were twelve Lions like the world has never seen. What does this mean?

To me it is clear in the bible there was a lot of work to down play the issue of Twelve to be just linked to twelve tribes of Israel. And in fact twelve tribes of Israel was made by God so that the number of successors to Moses would not be lost totally from those who try to hide it, because, they would have a "different" interpretation.

But when for example God gave Aeron the twelve on his breast plate, I believe that Israelites weren't separated to tribes as God never promotes tribalism in this sense, but rather it was meant to show the succession, the grandchildren and lineage linked back to Aeron and including Aeron, to be of twelve Leaders.

The Quran says "By the name of God is it steering and anchoring...." and "we gave them clear proofs in the affair (regarding people of Moses)" and "And we took the covenant of the children of Israel and rose from them twelve Captains...."

And regarding the religious leadership says "Do they have a share in the authority? For they would not give the people a date seed." and reminds of the family of Abraham to emphasize the authority of the Messenger and those who possess the authority from this nation.... that there is no authority but the great authority linked to God in his chosen pure ones.....


Would God be inconsistent with this number? But reason dictates he would be consistent, as it would be easier to safeguard and emphasize that the number has been emphasized on with respect to leadership and succession to the founding Captains of each Rising Illumination Year.

The other issue is the book cannot be something that cannot be unveiled by discussion among humans to beyond human. It has to be more then something that only inviduals can see individually through holy experience, because the latter would make it highly improbable and decrease the chance of humans agreeing.

The other is that the nature of morality if God is the Truest Morality, the it's connection to him must also be a living entity. The Quran emphasizes the LEADER is a human, not a concept, not a set of rules and dogmas, but real living loving being, which is known as the witness of the people of the era per Quran.

These teachings make sense and when looking into the 2nd witness to Jesus being Elijah, we see there is this emphasis in the bible as well.

And we see some places hints of the number Twelve being super significant at point and it is like a great part of the bible was simply to downgrade the significance.

I would say tribes in a people has no significance, we can always link back to a different set of grandparents, more than twelve, going back generations or going down generation, so it's really arbitrary.

So the real emphasis on twelve and the Priest office seems like the Quran unveils to be about the covenant of how to hold to the ship of Noah and be steered by Captains who steer by the name of God.

This is from the perspective of a few verses. Many arguments will follow!

Right from the beginning you give it away.

"All religions believe in the need" no need to go any further because that is my point to this thread.

Again, just like Catholic Lady, or any Jew or any Hindu or any Buddhist........ NOT THE QUESTION

"Why" is your own personal bias based on the individual's personal subjective opinion.

My questions are in the OP aimed at not just you, but anyone and everyone. 

"Why do you feel the need to believe" is my question. 

"All religions believe in the need" 

YEP, BINGO and that is my point. So again, if that is the case that all religions believe in the need, then what neutral filter do humans have that everyone can use to determine what is subjective opinion vs universal fact?

You said to discuss with other faiths. I am saying we all agree in the need of such figures...so then I reasoned to them, one of many reasons I believe the Quran is accurate and true.

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(April 23, 2017 at 1:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: YEP, BINGO and that is my point. So again, if that is the case that all religions believe in the need, then what neutral filter do humans have that everyone can use to determine what is subjective opinion vs universal fact?

Reason. Reason with genuine honest reflection always leads to the truth, if it slips, it will know it slipped eventually because it is humble enough to recognize it's faults.

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(April 23, 2017 at 1:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: YEP, BINGO and that is my point. So again, if that is the case that all religions believe in the need, then what neutral filter do humans have that everyone can use to determine what is subjective opinion vs universal fact?

Reason. Reason with genuine honest reflection always leads to the truth, if it slips, it will know it slipped eventually because it is humble enough to recognize it's faults.

And yet the Flat Earth Society is still a thing.

(April 23, 2017 at 1:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: "Why do you feel the need to believe" is my question. 

I answered that already I believe. 

The need is we are search for the beloved through eyes of love, searching the wise through wisdom, searching the witness through light, but the light and witness is one,  the love and beloved are one...we don't know what we are looking for exactly but are in love. We don't know exactly what we love, but wish to find that love beyond his veils.

All Messengers came to bring us out of the veils of darkness into the light, from ignorance and attachment to falsehood to the love of real beloved.

We pay attention to even "snake oil salesman" only to find the truth, we look at false swords only it attempt to try to find the true sword....

We look at false kings only to know the true anointed Kings of God. 

We believe God will guide us if we strive for his ways of ascent, and try to find the pathways towards him....

(April 23, 2017 at 1:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You said to discuss with other faiths. I am saying we all agree in the need of such figures...so then I reasoned to them, one of many reasons I believe the Quran is accurate and true.

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(April 23, 2017 at 1:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: YEP, BINGO and that is my point. So again, if that is the case that all religions believe in the need, then what neutral filter do humans have that everyone can use to determine what is subjective opinion vs universal fact?

Reason. Reason with genuine honest reflection always leads to the truth, if it slips, it will know it slipped eventually because it is humble enough to recognize it's faults.

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(April 23, 2017 at 1:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: YEP, BINGO and that is my point. So again, if that is the case that all religions believe in the need, then what neutral filter do humans have that everyone can use to determine what is subjective opinion vs universal fact?

Reason. Reason with genuine honest reflection always leads to the truth, if it slips, it will know it slipped eventually because it is humble enough to recognize it's faults.

I know what you are doing and that is not "honesty" in an objective context. I am sure you honestly believe you got it right, but so what, I am sure Christians and Jews and Buddhists as individuals honestly believe what they do.

Reason, when objective leads you where the evidences goes, not where you want it to go. 

Reason and honesty when objective include the willingness to admit when you are wrong. If you are not willing to do that you are not being objective. 

Christians honestly believe the bible is true.
Buddhists honestly believe Buddha is the right path.
Jews honestly believe that Yahweh is true.
Hindus honestly believe what they do as well.

Again, all of thee above still are trying to point to each respective club and claim it to be objective. 

Neutral reason leads to things that can be replicated and repeated and verified outside our personal beliefs. 

None of your responses reflect any sense of neutrality regardless of how much you honestly think they are neutral. I am sure you honestly believe you are being "neutral", but that is an apology, and everyone has an apology for their clubs/writings.

Why ask for reasons if you are going to simply dismiss them and not discuss them?

Nope, not taking the bait Brian Except to say this: one of the biggest causes of division in the world is anger. Anger leads to tunnel vision and that's where labels do the most damage. But if you can attempt to let go of anger at the source, by being mindfully aware of it, you can halt it in its tracks before it snowballs out of control, for your own sake and for the sake of others. So since it seems to me this thread can only lead to division, anger and tunnel vision, I say, no thanks.

(April 23, 2017 at 1:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I still think its the hats.



These fuckers will do anything for a guy in a silly hat.

No, this only demonstrates our species unfortunate evolution of falling for our notoriously flawed perceptions. I don't consider every individual theist a "fucker". I'd only agree that the reality is nobody needs to follow a holy person, but most since they get sold the religion of their parents, feel the need to do so because that is what their society sold them before they could form adult reasoning skills.

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(April 23, 2017 at 2:08 pm)emjay Wrote: Nope, not taking the bait Brian Except to say this: one of the biggest causes of division in the world is anger. Anger leads to tunnel vision and that's where labels do the most damage. But if you can attempt to let go of anger at the source, by being mindfully aware of it, you can halt it in its tracks before it snowballs out of control, for your own sake and for the sake of others. So since it seems to me this thread can only lead to division, anger and tunnel vision, I say, no thanks.

Nobody is trying to bait anyone.

I am sorry it bothers you that I am including all religions in this thread. I would say the opposite. I would say that it is because everyone is stuck in their own corners and don't compare and dig in their heals, as much as I love the empathy of my fellow liberals, this reaction is exactly what allows the far right to cause the worst of our species divisions.

"Live and let live" is not an argument, of course we don't need more global divisions or violence. Nobody should want that. But no, sorry, if our species never questioned social norms we would not have progressed. 

This isn't a rights issue one bit so please don't try to imply that or try to hide behind it. 

I am quite sure Catholic Lady doesn't want more hate and violence.
I am quite sure that Atlas or MK don't want that either.
I like you too, and I am sure you don't want that either.

This is STRICTLY about logic and facts and reason, and trying to get people to focus that our personal beliefs cannot replace a neutral setting which has produced our modern understanding of the world through neutral scientific method. 

"Why you feel the need" to hold one club over another is precisely why the more closed societies and more bigoted violent sects in the world get away with hiding behind well intended liberals. This thread is needed and the conversation is needed. It isn't a call to end religion or get people to fight each other. It is to get more to think objectively.

(April 23, 2017 at 2:15 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 23, 2017 at 2:08 pm)emjay Wrote: Nope, not taking the bait Brian Except to say this: one of the biggest causes of division in the world is anger. Anger leads to tunnel vision and that's where labels do the most damage. But if you can attempt to let go of anger at the source, by being mindfully aware of it, you can halt it in its tracks before it snowballs out of control, for your own sake and for the sake of others. So since it seems to me this thread can only lead to division, anger and tunnel vision, I say, no thanks.

Nobody is trying to bait anyone.

I am sorry it bothers you that I am including all religions in this thread. I would say the opposite. I would say that it is because everyone is stuck in their own corners and don't compare and dig in their heals, as much as I love the empathy of my fellow liberals, this reaction is exactly what allows the far right to cause the worst of our species divisions.

"Live and let live" is not an argument, of course we don't need more global divisions or violence. Nobody should want that. But no, sorry, if our species never questioned social norms we would not have progressed. 

This isn't a rights issue one bit so please don't try to imply that or try to hide behind it. 

I am quite sure Catholic Lady doesn't want more hate and violence.
I am quite sure that Atlas or MK don't want that either.
I like you too, and I am sure you don't want that either.

This is STRICTLY about logic and facts and reason, and trying to get people to focus that our personal beliefs cannot replace a neutral setting which has produced our modern understanding of the world through neutral scientific method. 

"Why you feel the need" to hold one club over another is precisely why the more closed societies and more bigoted violent sects in the world get away with hiding behind well intended liberals. This thread is needed and the conversation is needed. It isn't a call to end religion or get people to fight each other. It is to get more to think objectively.

Okay, I'll bite... for a while.

a) I am not a Buddhist.
b) I only trust science
c) I only trust Buddhist teachings where they agree with science. For instance, mindfulness plays a big part in many psychological therapies these days, especially in the realms of anger management. My sister is a psychologist and she uses mindfulness extensively in her work.

So can we at least get that out the way? So I am not representative of any club or religion. If Jesus had anything to say about psychology, and it made sense in line with science, I might take that advice on board too, but that wouldn't make me a Christian. So what I'm saying is I am not exclusively drawn to Buddhist teachings... I do not think it is right and everything else is wrong, I'm only drawn to teachings that make good psychological sense and agree with science.