(May 10, 2017 at 11:07 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Perhaps God's Perfect Plan has fractal properties allowing for a diffusion of cause/effect parameters that would allow correlated dispersal along the time line from a user interface and yet maintain the preordained perfect outcome ??

Did that come out of the Deepak generator?

You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design. That's what a puppet does.

(May 10, 2017 at 11:43 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 11:37 am)MellisaClarke Wrote: I don't want to think of it like that.
What if police officers ignored murderous criminals, and allowed things to proceed as they were?

I believe God's plan is far deeper than the scenario you lay out.

You can't compare God to police officers, because police officers have limited abilities. On the other hand, God stopping us every time one of us tried to do something wrong, would mean we'd be like puppets and not people.  

But yes, of course God's plan goes much deeper than what any of us can know or say. I can only offer my very limited understanding.

Yes I agree human police do have limits, but if you are an all powerful God whom claims you love your followers and you want to protect them, then it would seem to me, being that all powerful protector, you would have no excuse not to do that.

Is he a protector, or are we simply mere toys or props? Because it does not seem he is good at backing his mouth up.

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(May 10, 2017 at 12:15 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 11:43 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You can't compare God to police officers, because police officers have limited abilities. On the other hand, God stopping us every time one of us tried to do something wrong, would mean we'd be like puppets and not people.  

But yes, of course God's plan goes much deeper than what any of us can know or say. I can only offer my very limited understanding.

Yes I agree human police do have limits, but if you are an all powerful God whom claims you love your followers and you want to protect them, then it would seem to me, being that all powerful protector, you would have no excuse not to do that.

Is he a protector, or are we simply mere toys or props? Because it does not seem he is good at backing his mouth up.

You could make a better case for adults doing what they want, but kids? Tell me what choice a 4 year old would have getting cancer? What could they have done to deserve or even for God to allow that? What would Adam Walsh, the son of America's Most Wanted fame, what could Adam have done at his age to deserve to be raped and decapitated by a child molester or for God to sit with folded arms and do nothing while Adam was slaughtered?

We don't know what "God's plan is"?

Tell me, why is it finite humans outside of religion don't think like that? Tell me would you not get your kid medical care if they got cancer? If you knew a child molester was going to harm your kid you'd simply watch?

I think some people simply aren't grasping how if all actions are already known, there is no free will.
They keep saying God just already knows what everyone will do, but we still freely chose it. I think they are really missing that if all variables can be known by God enough to determine the outcome, then that outcome is determined, not freely chosen.

Now if god saw a lot of branching possibilities but didn't know which outcome would happen, there could be freedom there, but no detailed master plan.
The 2 simply aren't compatible.

(May 10, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Aroura Wrote: I think some people simply arent brasping how if all actions are already known, there is no free will.
They keep saying God just already knows what everyone will do, but we still freely chose it. I think they are really missing that if all variables can be known by God enough to determine the outcome, then that outcome is determined, not freely chosen.

Now if god saw a lot of branching possibilities but didnt know which outcome would happen, there could be freedome there, but no detailed master pla.
The 2 simply aren't compatible.

Not to mention the believer is still stick with "which one" because there have been 10s of thousands of creator God claims in our species history since the first written religions.

(May 10, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Valyza1 Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: It makes no sense to say that we have a free choice to do whatever we wish so long as it is exactly what God already predetermined. That's not free choice.

Why not?

Because logic you fucking moron.

We're free to do exactly one thing? So we're free to have no alternative options? LOL that's the very definition of the EXACT OPPOSITE OF freedom.

Quote:  If our very identities are determined by God, then we can't help but will things according to His design (namely his design of us).  We can choose whatever we want (Free Will), and what we want has been determined by God (Determinism)

Your attempt at an explanation isn't worthy of doing a logic-battle with one of my worst brain farts.

The theistic claim of "free will" is meaningless.

In real life, in biology, there is both determinism and randomness.

Your brain stem is your deterministic  programming .  Other  parts of your brain regulate delegate work depending on activity stimuli. Nobody has control over the stimuli they receive in that context. You cant control when your eyes  are open that light will enter, you can chose to open or close your eyes or wear sun glasses. But your eyes blink and that everyone does and that is evolution the deterministic programming that protects our eyes and keeps them moist. You cant chose to keep your eyes open forever. You can try, but eventually you would damage them, or pass out from lack of sleep. 

 But even with closed eyes, your brain is processing that position regardless if you are thinking about it or simply going through the motions.

Your brain and brain chemistry is no different than knowing the structure of a hurricane, that part is deterministic. The random part is path or "choice" and amount of rain.

(May 10, 2017 at 12:15 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design.  That's what a puppet does.

I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.

As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.

(May 10, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 12:15 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design.  That's what a puppet does.

I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.

As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.

But of course this gets to the point where that's what you're asserting what God's nature is, and actually demonstrating this assertion is another ball of wax entirely.

I think some people are just having a hard time grasping the concept of being outside the dimension of time and therefore being able to see it all at once. Which is understandable, since we live within time and don't have the ability to comprehend a dimension that is outside of it.

To us, it's past, present, and future, one moment happening at a time... and if we imagine someone "knowing the future" we imagine it means they know because they will control it. So, since they know what we will choose to do in the future, that must mean they will control what we choose, right? I get that.

But there is a difference between that^ and someone being outside of time entirely, and them "knowing the future" because to them there is no "future" to begin with - they are outside of that. They can see everything happening all at once, hence they can see us making our choices.

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(May 10, 2017 at 1:23 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.

As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.

But of course this gets to the point where that's what you're asserting what God's nature is, and actually demonstrating this assertion is another ball of wax entirely.

That is true. I know I can't prove anything. I'm just giving my opinion. I'm glad you can understand what I'm saying though.