(May 10, 2017 at 5:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 4:49 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I just wanted to be clear on your position.

I thought I was pretty clear and what I am saying has been orthodox teaching for 2000 years. No one deserves salvation based on their own merits. Salvation is entirely dependent on receiving forgiveness from Jesus Christ.

And forgiveness from doing things we can't help but do. Not to mention Original Sin.  So I'm supposed to worship an invisible dealer that has stacked the cards against me? Meh.

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(May 10, 2017 at 7:24 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: But if God is "something else" that taught us the noble traits we hold like mercy and logic, then the sentence doesn't make any sense.
Many religions sought to picture God as a humanoid with super powers. 

Everything human about us, is learnt and derived from him. He taught us, a step by step. An eternal worth is more of a matter of a group believing that fact and thus prospered, and another group that chose another path and another source and thus perished.
Illusion vs Truth.

The concepts of "mercy" and "logic" don't mean what everyone accepts they mean when talking about religion.

(May 10, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But Chad, if a person genuinely just doesn't think God is real, how can that be held against them to such a degree that warrants going straight to Hell after they die? Don't you think God gives these people a chance?

Mostly they had their chance. That is what Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that concludes with the warning, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.”

Now I do believe it is reasonable to extrapolate from the teaching of scripture to cover circumstances not directly mentioned, such as the fate of heathens, the very young, and the mentally compromised. I consider such extrapolations indeterminate teachings. We can hope but cannot presume. Personally, I feel that if an unbeliever has a genuine longing for what is Good and True and recognizes their inability to attain either by their own efforts, then there is a chance that this combination will continue to guide them towards blessedness in the afterlife. But I don’t think it would be right to present that position as a clear teaching.

Unfortunately that is not what you are witnessing in this thread. Look at all the twisted responses to the idea that God will forgive any and all offenses so long as there is genuine contrition. They call His mercy injustice. They call His generous loving-kindness immoral. These are not simple acts of disbelief or a benign ignorance. These responses are acts of will.

These responses are to the description of God being presented by believers. If God is real and shows up, I rather think he won't be as bad as many of his fans make him out to be.

(May 10, 2017 at 7:46 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Evolution might be the pen God taught us with?

If he is great as he assumes; then his way of teaching would be mighty. Evolution isn't a simple process, so as the orbits of planets and the seasons of harvest; through them he taught us the numbers of years and math.

The pen might be able to draw all of these; from Evolution to orbits, to watching a live demonstration of how beasts do some tasks; watch a beast taking care of her cubs, a pack eating a sheep, and so on.

Might? no evidence for it.

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(May 10, 2017 at 7:58 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 7:48 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: As almighty as he proposes to be, one would think he could do better than to imitate a pen used by a human hand to write precisely what humans think.

No no, God's pen is different than ours; God's pen writes whole species and whole events and even whole destinies.
Our pens can't even write a D.N.A, let alone whole life events.

Our pens use ink. God's pen is unknown. What does it use and how it looks is beyond me, but the result can be seen whenever we study math, biology or cosmology. It can also be seen in the grocery store.

I consider it a mercy to have human pens to write our thoughts.

You're babbling again.

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(May 10, 2017 at 8:23 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: It's not yet complete.

This life is not supposed to be a place where God appears; it's a mere test. You won't see the answer; but you can study the materials you have to reach it.
A fighting ground between us and ourselves and Satan. Who would we choose?

It's finding what is best for us. God is the best option.

Life is not supposed to be anything. And stop speaking for everyone about what is best.  Best is meaningless in this context.

(May 11, 2017 at 10:08 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: These responses are to the description of God being presented by believers. If God is real and shows up, I rather think he won't be as bad as many of his fans make him out to be.

Theists imagine their god as a monster because that is precisely what they want in a leader. The primitive mindset was unimaginative and incapable of perceiving a deity other than what other cultures had already created. The theistic mind, unfortunately, never properly evolved from the goat-herder way of thinking, which was precisely why Hitler and Trump rose to power.

Today, after we have thrown kings and queens off their thrones and given people the illusion of power through the process of democracy, most of us can somewhat imagine creating more reasonable ideals for the unknown. The process of leaving primitive ways of thinking in the past is a slow one, and hopefully the theistic way of thinking will become the minority in the world before it is too late to save us all and ensure a better future for generations to come.

(May 11, 2017 at 9:50 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Personally, I feel that if an unbeliever has a genuine longing for what is Good and True and recognizes their inability to attain either by their own efforts, then there is a chance that this combination will continue to guide them towards blessedness in the afterlife. But I don’t think it would be right to present that position as a clear teaching.

Unfortunately that is not what you are witnessing in this thread. Look at all the twisted responses to the idea that God will forgive any and all offenses so long as there is genuine contrition. They call His mercy injustice. They call His generous loving-kindness immoral. These are not simple acts of disbelief or a benign ignorance. These responses are acts of will.

Do you capitalize good and true, because you use your own definitions for them?

These "twisted" responses are because, looking at the entire bible, Mercy and loving kindness mean something totally different in a christian context.  It's you who are twisting.

(May 11, 2017 at 9:50 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But Chad, if a person genuinely just doesn't think God is real, how can that be held against them to such a degree that warrants going straight to Hell after they die? Don't you think God gives these people a chance?

Mostly they had their chance. That is what Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that concludes with the warning, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.”

Now I do believe it is reasonable to extrapolate from the teaching of scripture to cover circumstances not directly mentioned, such as the fate of heathens, the very young, and the mentally compromised. I consider such extrapolations indeterminate teachings. We can hope but cannot presume. Personally, I feel that if an unbeliever has a genuine longing for what is Good and True and recognizes their inability to attain either by their own efforts, then there is a chance that this combination will continue to guide them towards blessedness in the afterlife. But I don’t think it would be right to present that position as a clear teaching.

Unfortunately that is not what you are witnessing in this thread. Look at all the twisted responses to the idea that God will forgive any and all offenses so long as there is genuine contrition. They call His mercy injustice. They call His generous loving-kindness immoral. These are not simple acts of disbelief or a benign ignorance. These responses are acts of will.

I like the bolded part, and that's what I think too. If a person genuinely seeks goodness and truth and strives to live by it to the best of his understanding, God can work with that. Even if such a person doesn't believe God exists prior to his death. I still don't see how we can entirely blame someone for simply not believing any particular thing exists if they have not seen convincing proof of it. Refusing to believe because you don't like it or can't be bothered is one thing. But not believing because you just genuinely can't bring yourself to think it's real, is entirely different. And I think the vast majority of unbelievers fall into this latter category. 

I understand that there are passages in the bible that say things that make it sound like whoever doesn't think God/Jesus is real won't be "saved." But there are also passages in the bible condemning legalism and stressing the spirit of the law. Jesus called out the Pharisees so many times for their hard headed thinking and quickness to dismiss people. I don't think God would be as simple and small as to have planned for everyone who does not think He exists during their lifetime on earth to be damned immediately upon dying. I think God is much bigger and deeper than that.

How do you feel about what I said regarding people still having a chance to choose after they die and are made fully aware?

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(May 11, 2017 at 10:08 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: These responses are to the description of God being presented by believers. If God is real and shows up, I rather think he won't be as bad as many of his fans make him out to be.

I think He's so much greater than many of us give Him credit for.

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A protestant friend of mine (who's a pastor and a truly excellent person who would do anything for anyone) is one of those people who I was incredibly surprised to learn held the belief that all non Christians were going to Hell. I disagree with him completely, and can't understand the concept of thinking that way. I even asked him "What about people like Ghandi? He was not Christian, but he was clearly a man who stood for justice and goodness, and who sought truth to the best of his understanding. Did he go to Hell simply because he was not Christian?" His response was "probably." His reasoning is similar to what Chad said: that we are all deserving of Hell, and that Jesus died to save us from that. So we must believe in Him in order for that salvation to become effective for us. I see how they would come to this conclusion by certain things the bible says. But I find it extremely simplistic, and ignores so much... like how great and merciful God is. How Jesus showed us His love for all people and how He stood against simplistic, legalistic views.

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 9:50 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Mostly they had their chance. That is what Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that concludes with the warning, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.”

Now I do believe it is reasonable to extrapolate from the teaching of scripture to cover circumstances not directly mentioned, such as the fate of heathens, the very young, and the mentally compromised. I consider such extrapolations indeterminate teachings. We can hope but cannot presume. Personally, I feel that if an unbeliever has a genuine longing for what is Good and True and recognizes their inability to attain either by their own efforts, then there is a chance that this combination will continue to guide them towards blessedness in the afterlife. But I don’t think it would be right to present that position as a clear teaching.

Unfortunately that is not what you are witnessing in this thread. Look at all the twisted responses to the idea that God will forgive any and all offenses so long as there is genuine contrition. They call His mercy injustice. They call His generous loving-kindness immoral. These are not simple acts of disbelief or a benign ignorance. These responses are acts of will.

I like the bolded part, and that's what I think too. If a person genuinely seeks goodness and truth and strives to live by it to the best of his understanding, God can work with that. Even if such a person doesn't believe God exists prior to his death. I still don't see how we can entirely blame someone for simply not believing any particular thing exists if they have not seen convincing proof of it. Refusing to believe because you don't like it or can't be bothered is one thing. But not believing because you just genuinely can't bring yourself to think it's real, is entirely different. And I think the vast majority of unbelievers fall into this latter category. 

I understand that there are passages in the bible that say things that make it sound like whoever doesn't think God/Jesus is real won't be "saved." But there are also passages in the bible condemning legalism and stressing the spirit of the law. Jesus called out the Pharisees so many times for their hard headed thinking and quickness to dismiss people. I don't think God would be as simple and small as to have planned for everyone who does not think He exists during their lifetime on earth to be damned immediately upon dying. I think God is much bigger and deeper than that.

How do you feel about what I said regarding people still having a chance to choose after they die and are made fully aware?

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(May 11, 2017 at 10:08 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: These responses are to the description of God being presented by believers. If God is real and shows up, I rather think he won't be as bad as many of his fans make him out to be.

I think He's so much greater than many of us give Him credit for.

---

A protestant friend of mine (who's a pastor and a truly excellent person who would do anything for anyone) is one of those people who I was incredibly surprised to learn held the belief that all non Christians were going to Hell. I disagree with him completely, and can't understand the concept of thinking that way. I even asked him "What about people like Ghandi? He was not Christian, but he was clearly a man who stood for justice and goodness, and who sought truth to the best of his understanding. Did he go to Hell simply because he was not Christian?" His response was "probably." His reasoning is similar to what Chad said: that we are all deserving of Hell, and that Jesus died to save us from that. So we must believe in Him in order for that salvation to become effective for us. I see how they would come to this conclusion by certain things the bible says. But I find it extremely simplistic, and ignores so much... like how great and merciful God is. How Jesus showed us His love for all people and how He stood against simplistic, legalistic views.

Why don't all these people who have such a tight "relationship with god" agree with the even the basic tenets of christianity?  What is the point of the relationship when practically everyone who has one says different things?

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I still don't see how we can entirely blame someone for simply not believing any particular thing exists if they have not seen convincing proof of it. Refusing to believe because you don't like it or can't be bothered is one thing. But not believing because you just genuinely can't bring yourself to think it's real, is entirely different. And I think the vast majority of unbelievers fall into this latter category.

A common topic on AF is how much evidence is required to believe in God. I think it is pretty clear that for the overwhelming majority of AF members, no amount of evidence would be sufficient. As far as I’m concerned, God is not as hidden as they suggest. Everyone knows that some things are right and some things are wrong. It takes a special effort to believe in moral relativism. Everyone senses the transcendent in things of great beauty. It takes a special effort to attribute those feelings to just physiological responses. Anyone can see that things are not right in the world and that most often we have only ourselves to blame. It takes a special effort to consider yourself blameless in all this mess. The list goes on. That is what Paul is talking about; they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: How do you feel about what I said regarding people still having a chance to choose after they die and are made fully aware?

In Revelation 21, John describes gates in the walls of the New Jerusalem and specifically states in verse 25 that they will never be closed. Then, in verse 27 it says that only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life will ever enter. To me that means that God eternally invites all to join Him but that the unrighteous eternally reject that offer.

(May 11, 2017 at 11:00 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I like the bolded part, and that's what I think too. If a person genuinely seeks goodness and truth and strives to live by it to the best of his understanding, God can work with that. Even if such a person doesn't believe God exists prior to his death. I still don't see how we can entirely blame someone for simply not believing any particular thing exists if they have not seen convincing proof of it. Refusing to believe because you don't like it or can't be bothered is one thing. But not believing because you just genuinely can't bring yourself to think it's real, is entirely different. And I think the vast majority of unbelievers fall into this latter category. 

I understand that there are passages in the bible that say things that make it sound like whoever doesn't think God/Jesus is real won't be "saved." But there are also passages in the bible condemning legalism and stressing the spirit of the law. Jesus called out the Pharisees so many times for their hard headed thinking and quickness to dismiss people. I don't think God would be as simple and small as to have planned for everyone who does not think He exists during their lifetime on earth to be damned immediately upon dying. I think God is much bigger and deeper than that.

How do you feel about what I said regarding people still having a chance to choose after they die and are made fully aware?

---

I think He's so much greater than many of us give Him credit for.

---

A protestant friend of mine (who's a pastor and a truly excellent person who would do anything for anyone) is one of those people who I was incredibly surprised to learn held the belief that all non Christians were going to Hell. I disagree with him completely, and can't understand the concept of thinking that way. I even asked him "What about people like Ghandi? He was not Christian, but he was clearly a man who stood for justice and goodness, and who sought truth to the best of his understanding. Did he go to Hell simply because he was not Christian?" His response was "probably." His reasoning is similar to what Chad said: that we are all deserving of Hell, and that Jesus died to save us from that. So we must believe in Him in order for that salvation to become effective for us. I see how they would come to this conclusion by certain things the bible says. But I find it extremely simplistic, and ignores so much... like how great and merciful God is. How Jesus showed us His love for all people and how He stood against simplistic, legalistic views.

Why don't all these people who have such a tight "relationship with god" agree with the even the basic tenets of christianity?  What is the point of the relationship when practically everyone who has one says different things?

I definitely wouldn't say opinions on the fate of other people's souls are a "basic tenet of Christianity."

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(May 11, 2017 at 11:09 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I still don't see how we can entirely blame someone for simply not believing any particular thing exists if they have not seen convincing proof of it. Refusing to believe because you don't like it or can't be bothered is one thing. But not believing because you just genuinely can't bring yourself to think it's real, is entirely different. And I think the vast majority of unbelievers fall into this latter category.

A common topic on AF is how much evidence is required to believe in God. I think it is pretty clear that for the overwhelming majority of AF members, no amount of evidence would be sufficient. As far as I’m concerned, God is not as hidden as they suggest. Everyone knows that some things are right and some things are wrong. It takes a special effort to believe in moral relativism. Everyone senses the transcendent in things of great beauty. It takes a special effort to attribute those feelings to just physiological responses. Anyone can see that things are not right in the world and that most often we have only ourselves to blame. It takes a special effort to consider yourself blameless in all this mess. The list goes on. That is what Paul is talking about; they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: How do you feel about what I said regarding people still having a chance to choose after they die and are made fully aware?

In Revelation 21, John describes gates in the walls of the New Jerusalem and specifically states in verse 25 that they will never be closed. Then, in verse 27 it says that only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life will ever enter. To me that means that God eternally invites all to join Him but that the unrighteous eternally reject that offer.

I agree that Hell is the state of constant rejection of God (of goodness and love) in the afterlife. In rejecting goodness and love, we make ourselves miserable because we were made to be fulfilled by those things. This is what we have come to call "Hell." 

But that only works to support my theory that the full rejection doesn't happen until after the person dies. A person can be an unbeliever during their life time, and then humble themselves before God when they die and see that He exists.

I try to assume the best of people when it comes to this, as we were told by Jesus not to judge the state of another person's soul.