I believe morality is objective but I don't believe that moral values exist objectively. I believe in moral epistemology but not moral ontology.

Hey, science is objective and science isn't ontological either.

(May 10, 2017 at 11:47 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 11:31 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Guess God just has to abide by what those scribes scribbled.  Pfft, screw god.  It's all about the book.  Boring.

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It isn't so bad if you don't go literal.  We know a personal afterlife makes no sense.  So better to interpret "heaven" as a current state and "God" is just the internal other, the totality of self which consciously we can only ever be part.  So it wouldn't really be about anyone's eternal worth.  Rather, one just can't have that sort of bliss and remain in a partial state in rebellion against the something more within.  Then again, nothing really rides on it.  If hell is simply the status quo it isn't exactly a lake of fire.

It does make me laugh that someone could save hundreds of thousands of lives, be the best person they possibly can, go out of their way to help people, children, small furry animals, and then be sent to hell because he happens to belong to the wrong religious denomination.

What a petty being this god character must be.

I would disagree a lot with the above statements.   1) You appear to think credit should be given, for what one ought to do anyway (being good).  2) Are mistaken (or just choose to ignore) why scripture says that people are judged to separation from God.  3)  Nothing in scripture says that God's grace is consequent to what church one attends (there is really only one Church).  There's no indication of a theological test, or doctrinal questionnaire.   While a simplistic description, it's more of a rhetorical question, that Christ asked  “But who do you say that I am?”   And it's not about being able to speak the correct answer.

(May 11, 2017 at 10:07 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 11:47 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: It does make me laugh that someone could save hundreds of thousands of lives, be the best person they possibly can, go out of their way to help people, children, small furry animals, and then be sent to hell because he happens to belong to the wrong religious denomination.

What a petty being this god character must be.

I would disagree a lot with the above statements.   1) You appear to think credit should be given, for what one ought to do anyway (being good).  2) Are mistaken (or just choose to ignore) why scripture says that people are judged to separation from God.  3)  Nothing in scripture says that God's grace is consequent to what church one attends (there is really only one Church).  There's no indication of a theological test, or doctrinal questionnaire.   While a simplistic description, it's more of a rhetorical question, that Christ asked  “But who do you say that I am?”   And it's not about being able to speak the correct answer.

Not sure if you're addressing me, but ..

1)  Who would give me credit?  The god I don't believe exists?  Caucasian, please. 

2)  I'm going to go with ignoring it since .. who cares?

3)  Could've fooled me.  Is that like there is really only one animal; it's just that have different anatonomy and go by other names.  Are you suggesting the one xtian church no matter which name it goes by would all sign off on what you just wrote?  I don't think so.

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 9:50 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Mostly they had their chance. That is what Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that concludes with the warning, “If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.”

Now I do believe it is reasonable to extrapolate from the teaching of scripture to cover circumstances not directly mentioned, such as the fate of heathens, the very young, and the mentally compromised. I consider such extrapolations indeterminate teachings. We can hope but cannot presume. Personally, I feel that if an unbeliever has a genuine longing for what is Good and True and recognizes their inability to attain either by their own efforts, then there is a chance that this combination will continue to guide them towards blessedness in the afterlife. But I don’t think it would be right to present that position as a clear teaching.

Unfortunately that is not what you are witnessing in this thread. Look at all the twisted responses to the idea that God will forgive any and all offenses so long as there is genuine contrition. They call His mercy injustice. They call His generous loving-kindness immoral. These are not simple acts of disbelief or a benign ignorance. These responses are acts of will.

I like the bolded part, and that's what I think too. If a person genuinely seeks goodness and truth and strives to live by it to the best of his understanding, God can work with that. Even if such a person doesn't believe God exists prior to his death. I still don't see how we can entirely blame someone for simply not believing any particular thing exists if they have not seen convincing proof of it. Refusing to believe because you don't like it or can't be bothered is one thing. But not believing because you just genuinely can't bring yourself to think it's real, is entirely different. And I think the vast majority of unbelievers fall into this latter category. 

I understand that there are passages in the bible that say things that make it sound like whoever doesn't think God/Jesus is real won't be "saved." But there are also passages in the bible condemning legalism and stressing the spirit of the law. Jesus called out the Pharisees so many times for their hard headed thinking and quickness to dismiss people. I don't think God would be as simple and small as to have planned for everyone who does not think He exists during their lifetime on earth to be damned immediately upon dying. I think God is much bigger and deeper than that.

How do you feel about what I said regarding people still having a chance to choose after they die and are made fully aware

CL,

I think as Neo said, there iis little indication of a second chance and more of a picture that there is not.  And by nature grace, doesn't require a first opportunity, let alone a second. I hope that there is, but I also trust in God.  I do ponder to what extents the same faith, that saves those who came before Jesus, may count towards others (same faith, though less knowledge).

The other thing, that I have a problem with your idea is; that it is not just belief that, but belief in... that matters.  I don't think that being made aware, will make all that much difference for many.

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For more information on what I mean in the difference if beleif that vs belief in see here http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/how...belief-in/

The thing is, we know there is no second chance. You die, that's it.
It's not god judging as after death.
It's x-tians judging us before death.
Not all of them, but the ones who do are black hearted, nasty little fucks, clenching tightly to their scriptures and pointing fingers.

(May 11, 2017 at 6:11 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I believe morality is objective but I don't believe that moral values exist objectively. I believe in moral epistemology but not moral ontology.

So you don't think it exist but you still know all about it. That doesn't even make sense.

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(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I think as Neo said, there iis little indication of a second chance and more of a picture that there is not.  And by nature grace, doesn't require a first opportunity, let alone a second.

Yes, that was what I meant. FWIW annihilationism is still on the table. Unbelievers could just die permanently after the White Throne judgement. I'm sure they'll whine about it not being fair then too even though it will be exactly what they already expected.

(May 12, 2017 at 9:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 6:11 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I believe morality is objective but I don't believe that moral values exist objectively. I believe in moral epistemology but not moral ontology.

So you don't think it exist but you still know all about it. That doesn't even make sense.

I don't think what exist? What you said didn't even make sense.

Truth is different to existence... "2+2= 4" is true without there having to be an object that 'exists'...

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(May 12, 2017 at 9:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes, that was what I meant. FWIW annihilationism is still on the table. Unbelievers could just die permanently after the White Throne judgement. I'm sure they'll whine about it not being fair then too even though it will be exactly what they already expected.

I'm pretty sure that when someone is annihilated they can't whine about something...

(May 12, 2017 at 9:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 10:35 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I think as Neo said, there iis little indication of a second chance and more of a picture that there is not.  And by nature grace, doesn't require a first opportunity, let alone a second.

Yes, that was what I meant. FWIW annihilationism is still on the table. Unbelievers could just die permanently after the White Throne judgement. I'm sure they'll whine about it not being fair then too even though it will be exactly what they already expected.

Guys, I get that the bible doesn't go into detail about how things will play out at the moment of death. But if Hell is the constant rejection of God, and Heaven is the constant acceptance of Him, doesn't that indicate that we still have the free will to choose once we die?

And for people who don't believe in God/Jesus simply because they were born into an indigenous tribe in the wilderness or something and have never heard of Him. When they die and see God for the first time, don't they then get the chance to either accept or reject? If those people get that chance, why wouldn't everyone else?

Again, this is my personal opinion, but the notion that unbelievers just die and go right to Hell (as though Hell is a physical place, which it isn't) sounds much too simplistic for such a great God. And Chad, I already know you said there are exceptions. But I don't see how that would work if there was no "last chance" at the moment of first encounter with God.

One last note on this post: What exactly did Jesus mean when He told us to judge not? It's pretty broad. I think He meant the ultimate judgement... the judgement on the state of someone's soul, considering we also believe only God can make it. Knowing that we are not to make these judgement, wouldn't we assume the best of people's souls?

(May 12, 2017 at 9:49 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Guys, I get that the bible doesn't go into detail about how things will play out at the moment of death. But if Hell is the constant rejection of God, and Heaven is the constant acceptance of Him, doesn't that indicate that we still have the free will to choose once we die?

It depends what you mean by 'free will'.

Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

Alasdair Ham Wrote:The immoral part is not that God forgives murderers. It's WHY he forgives them. He forgives them for giving themselves to Jesus and he won't forgive atheists for not giving themselves to Jesus even if they're perfectly good people.

In the first case there is contrition for one's shortcomings. In the second case, there is not.

So God will accept murderers if they are contrite, even if they don't accept Jesus as their savior?