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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 10:54 am
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2017 at 10:57 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 17, 2017 at 10:46 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Didn't Abraham observe, thought about interesting questions... before believing ? No. Ibrahim is a character in a book whose internal experience, if there ever was one, is completely lost to time as would be expected. As to whether or not, -in the narrative- Ibrahim "observed and thought about interesting questions"...no....no he didn't do that at all.
Quote:His story is there on the Quran.
Yes, his story is there in the quran, and apart from just being a story, even the story doesn't read as you have characterized it.......did you read the story...or?
Ibrahim had a dream, and compelled by that dream he set out to commit the unspeakable in the name of god, by utter submission to it's will, as the first muslim. Stop me when any of this rings a bell?
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 1:37 pm
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2017 at 1:40 pm by Cyberman.)
(May 17, 2017 at 10:46 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Didn't Abraham observe, thought about interesting questions... before believing ?
Not even slightly. God was all like "Hey Abes, kill your son for me thx" and Abraham was like "K", then it was "Just trollin lol" and Abraham was all "Omg sick burn lololol!!!!! I was totes gonn do it tho" and God was all "Yeah bout dat we gots to talk facetime me" and Isaac was all up in that shit and was like "WTF d00d? Liike SRSLY??!!!???" and that's where the trouble started.
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 1:57 pm
(This post was last modified: May 17, 2017 at 2:04 pm by Whateverist.)
(May 10, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: (May 10, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: It makes no sense to say that we have a free choice to do whatever we wish so long as it is exactly what God already predetermined. That's not free choice.
Why not? If our very identities are determined by God, then we can't help but will things according to His design (namely his design of us). We can choose whatever we want (Free Will), and what we want has been determined by God (Determinism)
If this is what you think, you're doing it wrong.
(May 10, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (May 10, 2017 at 12:15 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You can't say that we have free will if we "can't help" but act according to his design. That's what a puppet does.
I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.
As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.
How in the world can you possibly know that (my bolded)? Or did you mean you subscribe to something doctrinal endorsed by the priests of your faith? In that case why not say "Some of us choose to believe God inhabits all of time at once, though of course no really knows what God is or wants"?
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 2:39 pm
(May 17, 2017 at 1:57 pm)Whateverist Wrote: (May 10, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: Why not? If our very identities are determined by God, then we can't help but will things according to His design (namely his design of us). We can choose whatever we want (Free Will), and what we want has been determined by God (Determinism)
If this is what you think, you're doing it wrong.
(May 10, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree with this. And for the record, I don't see it in the way that other poster does.
As I explained, God knows what we will choose in the future specifically because He is not bound by past, present, and future. He can see everything happening all at once, like looking at a timeline of the beginning of time all the way until the end of it. This does not mean He controls what we choose, it just means He is already seeing what we will choose because He is looking at all of time from the outside of it.
How in the world can you possibly know that (my bolded)? Or did you mean you subscribe to something doctrinal endorsed by the priests of your faith? In that case why not say "Some of us choose to believe God inhabits all of time at once, though of course no really knows what God is or wants"?
We don't claim to know everything about God or what God wants. But that God transcends time is a belief that is shared among Catholics and many Christians alike: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 2:46 pm
Yep, you make your doctrinal choices communally. It helps enforce the idea that those are the right choices. 
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 3:56 pm
(May 17, 2017 at 10:46 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Didn't Abraham observe, thought about interesting questions... before believing ?
No Abram saw lots of stuff he didn't understand, got puzzled momentarily, and then went "oh well, fuck it, I'll blame yhwh". He never went near the scientific method.
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 4:11 pm
If God 'transcends' time, why He no give himself a do over when Eve messed up the apple test?
Or when Cain slew Able?
Or when He flooded the world?
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 4:13 pm
Personally, I'm wondering what part of the plan could be considered "perfect"?
The part where he puts the forbidden knowledge within easy reach of those not allowed to have it?
The part where Pharaoh is willing to let the Hebrews go but god hardens his heart so he can slaughter the people of Egypt?
The part where he all but wipes out humanity?
The part where the only decent person he could find in a town is a man willing to let his daughters be gang raped?
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 4:16 pm
(May 17, 2017 at 2:46 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Yep, you make your doctrinal choices communally. It helps enforce the idea that those are the right choices.
For what it's worth, if I am to believe that a god exists and that he created everything, it does make sense to me that such a being would transcend time.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 17, 2017 at 4:25 pm
(May 17, 2017 at 4:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (May 17, 2017 at 2:46 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Yep, you make your doctrinal choices communally. It helps enforce the idea that those are the right choices.
For what it's worth, if I am to believe that a god exists and that he created everything, it does make sense to me that such a being would transcend time.
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Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
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