(July 18, 2011 at 10:42 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: In an attempt to create order I honestly don't see any index of anarchy to work out. Anarchy means societal chaos. It will not work. Neither does over-control, let me add.

I would urge you to seriously look at anarchism and explain to me how it could ever possibly work... Just my little input, sorry I don't have the time to read up on all of your posts.

That's a common misconception, Anarchy means abolition of the state - some level of Chaos is I freely admit a likely result but it is not explicit, but if the government ended tomorrow things would largely continue as normal - Belgium hasn't had a government for over two years so they could be considered an anarchy.

(July 18, 2011 at 10:58 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 10:42 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: In an attempt to create order I honestly don't see any index of anarchy to work out. Anarchy means societal chaos. It will not work. Neither does over-control, let me add.

I would urge you to seriously look at anarchism and explain to me how it could ever possibly work... Just my little input, sorry I don't have the time to read up on all of your posts.

That's a common misconception, Anarchy means abolition of the state - some level of Chaos is I freely admit a likely result but it is not explicit, but if the government ended tomorrow things would largely continue as normal - Belgium hasn't had a government for over two years so they could be considered an anarchy.

I suppose it is a misconception.

I'm a capitalist, a left wing capitalist if you will. I'm going to admit, whether it be out of my ignorance or not, anarchy scares me. I feel secure with big brother as long as big brother is kind and caring. Democracy is nice because it let's you change and pick your big brother. Libertarianism takes the assumption that big brother is not necessary, or as necessary as people like myself think he is which from what I can pull together is completely false. That's how I make my assertion.

For me, as long as a democracy is in place, regulated capitalism is the way to go.

(July 18, 2011 at 11:28 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: I suppose it is a misconception.

I'm a capitalist, a left wing capitalist if you will. I'm going to admit, whether it be out of my ignorance or not, anarchy scares me. I feel secure with big brother as long as big brother is kind and caring. Democracy is nice because it let's you change and pick your big brother. Libertarianism takes the assumption that big brother is not necessary, or as necessary as people like myself think he is which from what I can pull together is completely false. That's how I make my assertion.

For me, as long as a democracy is in place, regulated capitalism is the way to go.

You're now falsely equating libertarianism with anarchism...

Libertarianism does advocate the role of government to protect the rights and sovereignty of individuals, they would exist to defend the nation from external threats, punish those who would force another person to do something against their will, those who neglect their social and contractual responsibilities and obligations and those who are fraudulent in they deliberately lie or mislead to convince someone to do something that they would not have done were they fully informed.

This would involve a government with at minimum a military, a police force, a legislative branch, a judicial system, a prison system, some environmental policing and something similar to the SEC for financial fraud and contractual violations.

That's a reasonable amount of big brother without the bullshit authoritarian compulsion such as "You must sell this product for a price between x and y", "You may not work for less than x", "you may not purchase x", "you may not consume x", "you may not do x with y" and the like. Essentially, as long as there are no victims from action it's nobody else's business.

(July 18, 2011 at 11:42 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 11:28 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: I suppose it is a misconception.

I'm a capitalist, a left wing capitalist if you will. I'm going to admit, whether it be out of my ignorance or not, anarchy scares me. I feel secure with big brother as long as big brother is kind and caring. Democracy is nice because it let's you change and pick your big brother. Libertarianism takes the assumption that big brother is not necessary, or as necessary as people like myself think he is which from what I can pull together is completely false. That's how I make my assertion.

For me, as long as a democracy is in place, regulated capitalism is the way to go.

You're now falsely equating libertarianism with anarchism...

Libertarianism does advocate the role of government to protect the rights and sovereignty of individuals, they would exist to defend the nation from external threats, punish those who would force another person to do something against their will, those who neglect their social and contractual responsibilities and obligations and those who are fraudulent in they deliberately lie or mislead to convince someone to do something that they would not have done were they fully informed.

This would involve a government with at minimum a military, a police force, a legislative branch, a judicial system, a prison system, some environmental policing and something similar to the SEC for financial fraud and contractual violations.

So libertarianism is regulated capitalism?

Could it be possible I'm a libertarian?

(July 18, 2011 at 11:44 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: So libertarianism is regulated capitalism?

Could it be possible I'm a libertarian?

No, none of that has anything to do with regulations! You can buy, sell and consume anything at all you want for any price you are willing to pay with anybody who is willing to trade, so long as everyone consents and everyone is fully informed. Regulations attempt to restrict this framework.

(July 18, 2011 at 11:48 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 11:44 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: So libertarianism is regulated capitalism?

Could it be possible I'm a libertarian?

No, none of that has anything to do with regulations! You can buy, sell and consume anything at all you want for any price you are willing to pay with anybody who is willing to trade, so long as everyone consents and everyone is fully informed. Regulations attempt to restrict this framework.

I see what you mean, forgive me Void as this is a learning experience for me. The role of the government in your Utopia is to maintain some kind of order, correct? I would associate that with regulation.

(July 18, 2011 at 11:52 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 11:48 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 11:44 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: So libertarianism is regulated capitalism?

Could it be possible I'm a libertarian?

No, none of that has anything to do with regulations! You can buy, sell and consume anything at all you want for any price you are willing to pay with anybody who is willing to trade, so long as everyone consents and everyone is fully informed. Regulations attempt to restrict this framework.

I see what you mean, forgive me Void as this is a learning experience for me. The role of the government in your Utopia is to maintain some kind of order, correct? I would associate that with regulation.

Your mistake was relatively common, it's the fact that you've assimilated the new definitions quickly that is impressive.

I refuse to propose a Utopia and will not work towards a society confined by my individual values, I have no desire to drive other individuals towards my ideal city of glass, steel and trees where there is music being played by speakers on public streets, where everyone is fit and healthy and where everyone values reason and science etc, all I propose is that everyone should be free to pursue their own values so long as they force nobody else to act against their will in the process - If this involves people building ugly brick buildings in the middle of a city square or refusing to play music from their premises or eating too much and being fat and ugly then so be it, it's none of my business to tell them otherwise.

I have to say, I love the libertarian views on drugs, and wish that people in the two major parties that hold all of the power would wise up about this.

(July 19, 2011 at 12:23 am)theVOID Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 11:52 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 11:48 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 11:44 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: So libertarianism is regulated capitalism?

Could it be possible I'm a libertarian?

No, none of that has anything to do with regulations! You can buy, sell and consume anything at all you want for any price you are willing to pay with anybody who is willing to trade, so long as everyone consents and everyone is fully informed. Regulations attempt to restrict this framework.

I see what you mean, forgive me Void as this is a learning experience for me. The role of the government in your Utopia is to maintain some kind of order, correct? I would associate that with regulation.

Your mistake was relatively common, it's the fact that you've assimilated the new definitions quickly that is impressive.

I refuse to propose a Utopia and will not work towards a society confined by my individual values, I have no desire to drive other individuals towards my ideal city of glass, steel and trees where there is music being played by speakers on public streets, where everyone is fit and healthy and where everyone values reason and science etc, all I propose is that everyone should be free to pursue their own values so long as they force nobody else to act against their will in the process - If this involves people building ugly brick buildings in the middle of a city square or refusing to play music from their premises or eating too much and being fat and ugly then so be it, it's none of my business to tell them otherwise.

Sorry, by Utopia I meant your ideal societal set-up. I understand what you mean, but my major opposition to the libertarian view is the downplay of the governments role on society. In a democracy the society is represented by the government so overall government is what the voter makes it.

With libertarian rules in place the government won't have the chance to be good, but I do acknowledge that with these same rules it is more difficult for government to cause harm.

My position is that with the correct government in place, one with minimal corruption, programs and laws will be made for the betterment of society. But first we need to have educated voters...

(July 19, 2011 at 1:33 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: Sorry, by Utopia I meant your ideal societal set-up. I understand what you mean, but my major opposition to the libertarian view is the downplay of the governments role on society. In a democracy the society is represented by the government so overall government is what the voter makes it.

Only the majority opinion is represented in a democracy so if you disagree with the majority you do not get what you want.

(July 19, 2011 at 1:33 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: With libertarian rules in place the government won't have the chance to be good, but I do acknowledge that with these same rules it is more difficult for government to cause harm.

"Good" is hard to define and should not be the goal of a government. The government should work to balance society for the citizens by enforcing contractual obligations and preventing injustice.

(July 19, 2011 at 1:33 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: My position is that with the correct government in place, one with minimal corruption, programs and laws will be made for the betterment of society. But first we need to have educated voters...

The problem with a government that is too involved with the running of society is that it gets snarled up in a bunch of crap that would be better served by the people who are closer to the situation and have a vested interest in the outcome i.e. the private sector. I would rather that government just balance society when needed and stay out of my personal and economic life (For the most part... I was totally stoked when I got a $8500 tax credit to help with my house purchase!). Void's representation of Libertarian ideals are in accord with my own ideals.