(May 23, 2017 at 4:08 pm)Valyza1 Wrote:

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Even if that's true for all Mormons, that they don't understand their own beliefs (and there's no way to know that), I fail to see how mockery helps.  Children don't understand what they're doing when they pretend to do grown up tasks.  Is ridicule really going to help them grow up?  It serves no purpose but to gratify the person doing the ridiculing, and it's a cheap gratification to boot.  You can't expect anyone in the wrong to learn something when they are on the defensive.  

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This is an atheist forum.

Any theist who comes here has to understand that she will not be showered with praise past the introduction page.

Theists have their own safe forums, and an atheist forum is a safe space for atheists.

We reserve the right to ridicule theism here.

What we attempt to avoid is ridiculing the theist who posts here.

(May 23, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(May 23, 2017 at 4:08 pm)Valyza1 Wrote:

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Even if that's true for all Mormons, that they don't understand their own beliefs (and there's no way to know that), I fail to see how mockery helps.  Children don't understand what they're doing when they pretend to do grown up tasks.  Is ridicule really going to help them grow up?  It serves no purpose but to gratify the person doing the ridiculing, and it's a cheap gratification to boot.  You can't expect anyone in the wrong to learn something when they are on the defensive.  

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This is an atheist forum.

Any theist who comes here has to understand that she will not be showered with praise past the introduction page.

Theists have their own safe forums, and an atheist forum is a safe space for atheists.

We reserve the right to ridicule theism here.

What we attempt to avoid is ridiculing the theist who posts here.

Not sure what safety has to do with any of this, and I'm not talking about rights. I agree that ridicule is your right. Anyone has a right to ridicule anything they don't understand. It doesn't mean it's the best way to approach it, nor does it mean I'm undermining that right by pointing that out.

(May 24, 2017 at 12:06 am)Valyza1 Wrote:

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Not sure what safety has to do with any of this, and I'm not talking about rights.  I agree that ridicule is your right.  Anyone has a right to ridicule anything they don't understand.  It doesn't mean it's the best way to approach it, nor does it mean I'm undermining that right by pointing that out.  

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The irony being that every atheist here understands theism quite well enough to ridicule it.

Most atheists were theists before they removed the rose colored glasses.

(May 24, 2017 at 12:06 am)Valyza1 Wrote:

(May 23, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: This is an atheist forum.

Any theist who comes here has to understand that she will not be showered with praise past the introduction page.

Theists have their own safe forums, and an atheist forum is a safe space for atheists.  

We reserve the right to ridicule theism here.

What we attempt to avoid is ridiculing the theist who posts here.

Not sure what safety has to do with any of this, and I'm not talking about rights.  I agree that ridicule is your right.  Anyone has a right to ridicule anything they don't understand.  It doesn't mean it's the best way to approach it, nor does it mean I'm undermining that right by pointing that out.  

Christians have a saying, "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

Personally I apply that to religion, "Love the person, unless they're a prick, liar, or moron, hate the belief."

(May 23, 2017 at 4:08 pm)Valyza1 Wrote:

(May 23, 2017 at 3:42 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: The point being, they don't understand it either, and you can read my "palpably uncomfortable" as "embarrassed".  See, even THEY know they are schilling BS.

Even if that's true for all Mormons, that they don't understand their own beliefs (and there's no way to know that), I fail to see how mockery helps.  Children don't understand what they're doing when they pretend to do grown up tasks.  Is ridicule really going to help them grow up?  It serves no purpose but to gratify the person doing the ridiculing, and it's a cheap gratification to boot.  You can't expect anyone in the wrong to learn something when they are on the defensive.  

When bullshit is presented as fact, and the believers have stopped thinking and are just swallowing the crap whole, ridicule is one of the few ways to get their attention.

(May 24, 2017 at 7:43 am)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(May 23, 2017 at 4:08 pm)Valyza1 Wrote: Even if that's true for all Mormons, that they don't understand their own beliefs (and there's no way to know that), I fail to see how mockery helps.  Children don't understand what they're doing when they pretend to do grown up tasks.  Is ridicule really going to help them grow up?  It serves no purpose but to gratify the person doing the ridiculing, and it's a cheap gratification to boot.  You can't expect anyone in the wrong to learn something when they are on the defensive.  

When bullshit is presented as fact, and the believers have stopped thinking and are just swallowing the crap whole, ridicule is one of the few ways to get their attention.

Brilliant. Stop someone from jumping off a bridge by shooting them.

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(May 24, 2017 at 12:15 am)Lutrinae Wrote:

(May 24, 2017 at 12:06 am)Valyza1 Wrote:

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Not sure what safety has to do with any of this, and I'm not talking about rights.  I agree that ridicule is your right.  Anyone has a right to ridicule anything they don't understand.  It doesn't mean it's the best way to approach it, nor does it mean I'm undermining that right by pointing that out.  

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The irony being that every atheist here understands theism quite well enough to ridicule it.

Most atheists were theists before they removed the rose colored glasses.

To identify theism as rose colored glasses in such a context already clarifies the entirety of your objection with it. It belies the fact that theism, representing for you the sheltered world-view stage of your journey through life, doesn't represent the same thing for everyone. It's not all flowers and candy canes for many theists. There are realities just as hard, and at times downright terrifying, for one committed to serving God as there are for anyone devoted to any ideal. And yes, if one is on the right path, there is a promise of Heaven, but there is no promise that one is on, has been on, or will stay on the right path. Just believing there is such a thing as eternal damnation and not being sure if one is consecrating oneself to it or not is enough to keep one awake at night.

(May 24, 2017 at 12:24 am)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(May 24, 2017 at 12:06 am)Valyza1 Wrote: Not sure what safety has to do with any of this, and I'm not talking about rights.  I agree that ridicule is your right.  Anyone has a right to ridicule anything they don't understand.  It doesn't mean it's the best way to approach it, nor does it mean I'm undermining that right by pointing that out.  

Christians have a saying, "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

Personally I apply that to religion, "Love the person, unless they're a prick, liar, or moron, hate the belief."

So basically, "love the person, unless they're a human being, hate the belief". I think the effectiveness of that Christian saying is in the judgement of intent, because intent is the theologically significant part of sin. The only intent an individual can hope to adjudicate properly is one's own ("remove the beam from your own eye"). The only trustworthy example of a "sinner" is oneself. I think the most effective use of ridicule is on oneself first.

[edit]More to the point, Christianity identifies ALL humans as sinners, so to apply the same philosophy of hating sin to ridiculing baseless beliefs means one first must ridicule one's own baseless beliefs.

(May 24, 2017 at 8:29 am)Valyza1 Wrote:

(May 24, 2017 at 7:43 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: When bullshit is presented as fact, and the believers have stopped thinking and are just swallowing the crap whole, ridicule is one of the few ways to get their attention.

Brilliant.  Stop someone from jumping off a bridge by shooting them.

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I don't get the analogy.  I'm talking discussion and you're talking suicide/murder.

(May 24, 2017 at 12:19 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(May 24, 2017 at 8:29 am)Valyza1 Wrote: Brilliant.  Stop someone from jumping off a bridge by shooting them.

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I don't get the analogy.  I'm talking discussion and you're talking suicide/murder.

Perhaps the analogy is too extreme, but ridicule is not discussion. There's nothing corrective about it. It is merely a declaration of judgement and to apply it to someone's belief in no way works to dissuade them from it, and may, in fact endear them more to it, because you're presenting it's opposition in a very unattractive light.

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Either someone is misguided in their beliefs or you are in criticizing their beliefs . If the first, then pointing out their error in reasoning is your best hope. If the latter, then obviously, you need to reflect on your own. In either case, where is ridicule helpful? Also, in either case, it will never be 100% clear which one it is, if not both.

2 Nephi 5:

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.
25 And the Lord God said unto me: They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me; and inasmuch as they will not remember me, and hearken unto my words, they shall scourge them even unto destruction.



So, who wants to give this sort of thing a pass? Why wouldn't anyone want to criticize these religious beliefs ??