I'm not going to pretend to disagree with him about the things I agree with him about.

But I certainly don't "like" him anymore.

Respect? I respect everyone. I just don't always show it.

I'm not sure what was so shocking or appalling in that clip. Sam Harris isn't my favorite intellectual, but you very clearly didn't hear his message there. The things that Sam himself said, not the flippant dude he was talking to.

You throw around this word bigot and it starts to lose it's meaning. Yeah he might be an asshole, but I don't think he's advocating that trans people are less than human. He's not exactly a trans rights activist, but I think his point (Murray) is that the regressive response to disagreement by progressives gets often taken way too far, where it's not even about disagreement, it's about punishment.

You sort of proved his point here, Hammy.

It is one reason I prefer to not idolize anyone.

The more you admire someone, the more you set yourself up for disappointment when that individual is not perfect.

It's why love and marriage are such bitches.

(May 27, 2017 at 3:28 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: I think his point (Murray) is that the regressive response to disagreement by progressives gets often taken way too far, where it's not even about disagreement, it's about punishment.

You sort of proved his point here, Hammy.

What possible punishment are we claiming Ham asked for? I got lost in the meandering paragraphs which centered on a "On one hand, ... On the other hand..." pattern.

(May 27, 2017 at 2:56 pm)Hammy Wrote: Yeah. Well this is a thread about how I not only agree with him on lots of things (although disagree strongly with him on some things)... but I generally consider myself a rather big Sam Harris fan. He's my favorite (was my favorite) public intellectual

Now he's just some transphobic bigoted fuckface who merely happens to be a smart guy who I agree with on a lot of matters and I think has very good argumentation and logical skills in general but I have no desire to listen to his podcasts, read his books or watch his videos anymore, and I'm far from a fan.

I think you're way over reacting.
I listened to much of the discussion before and after the clip and the main subject is political correctness and it is Murray's lack of political correctness that Harris is laughing at. Transgender issues are actually not discussed at all other than the rant that Douglas uses to show that people can be considered a bigot for not wanting to sleep with Kaitlynn Jenner. It seems pretty clear to me that Harris is amused by this and not by the ideas that trans people are not somehow immoral. The rant itself is used as an example of the vilification of those who don't tow an "acceptable" view.

It is obvious to me that what Harris and this guy (whom I don't know) have in common is a strong dislike of those who label disagreement with others as racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic etc... And they also share a strong dislike of the regressive left. I have no problem with either of those views as I'm not a cheerleader for either the left or the right.


Here is the only reaction I could find from Harris on the issue when asked "What are your thoughts on the transgender debate?"

"I really have none. I know very little about this area. I don't actually know anyone who is transgendered. I don't have any strong intuitions about it, apart from a commitment to political equality, which seems obvious.
I think at one point in my conversation with Douglas Murray, he said some things people interpreted as being disparaging of transgendered people, and I was faulted for not pushing back at that point. I think I took Douglas to be just railing against political correctness on this, and really every other topic.
I have to declare my ignorance, and thus far lack of attention, to the issue psychologically and scientifically, which is the spirit of the question I am getting here. So, I will pass that by."

I see nothing at all that would lead me to believe that Harris is transphobic or holds even the slightest bit of animosity towards trans or gay people (like Murray himself who is gay)

A talking head's still a talking head...atheist, or not.
And, I don't put too much stock in talking heads.

Therefore, I don't get disappointed.

(May 27, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote:

(May 27, 2017 at 3:28 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: I think his point (Murray) is that the regressive response to disagreement by progressives gets often taken way too far, where it's not even about disagreement, it's about punishment.

You sort of proved his point here, Hammy.

What possible punishment are we claiming Ham asked for? I got lost in the meandering paragraphs which centered on a "On one hand, ... On the other hand..." pattern.

Not necessarily legal punishment, but personal, retributive punishment for not toeing the progressive line. I get not being a fan anymore, but this is the ideological purism that is going to give us Donald Trump for 8 years. It is toxic in the liberal movement, I think.

The left will nominate someone who is 90-95% progressive, but once voted against party lines or isn't a proponent of one cause, and they will be demonized by a sector of progressives as not good enough, and hatred will brew, meanwhile the right sits back and votes along party lines because the numbers dictate it.

(May 27, 2017 at 4:16 pm)Crunchy Wrote:

(May 27, 2017 at 2:56 pm)Hammy Wrote: Yeah. Well this is a thread about how I not only agree with him on lots of things (although disagree strongly with him on some things)... but I generally consider myself a rather big Sam Harris fan. He's my favorite (was my favorite) public intellectual

Now he's just some transphobic bigoted fuckface who merely happens to be a smart guy who I agree with on a lot of matters and I think has very good argumentation and logical skills in general but I have no desire to listen to his podcasts, read his books or watch his videos anymore, and I'm far from a fan.

I think you're way over reacting.
I listened to much of the discussion before and after the clip and the main subject is political correctness and it is Murray's lack of political correctness that Harris is laughing at. Transgender issues are actually not discussed at all other than the rant that Douglas uses to show that people can be considered a bigot for not wanting to sleep with Kaitlynn Jenner. It seems pretty clear to me that Harris is amused by this and not by the ideas that trans people are not somehow immoral. The rant itself is used as an example of the vilification of those who don't tow an "acceptable" view.

It is obvious to me that what Harris and this guy (whom I don't know) have in common is a strong dislike of those who label disagreement with others as racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic etc... And they also share a strong dislike of the regressive left. I have no problem with either of those views as I'm not a cheerleader for either the left or the right.


Here is the only reaction I could find from Harris on the issue when asked "What are your thoughts on the transgender debate?"

"I really have none. I know very little about this area. I don't actually know anyone who is transgendered. I don't have any strong intuitions about it, apart from a commitment to political equality, which seems obvious.
I think at one point in my conversation with Douglas Murray, he said some things people interpreted as being disparaging of transgendered people, and I was faulted for not pushing back at that point. I think I took Douglas to be just railing against political correctness on this, and really every other topic.
I have to declare my ignorance, and thus far lack of attention, to the issue psychologically and scientifically, which is the spirit of the question I am getting here. So, I will pass that by."

I see nothing at all that would lead me to believe that Harris is transphobic or holds even the slightest bit of animosity towards trans or gay people (like Murray himself who is gay)

Thank you for the clarification.

I may have read one or two of Harris' books, many years after they were published, but I am not the kind of atheist who regularly reads atheistic material.

I find that my following my own path toward atheism is much more rewarding.

So when someone posts something like this, I do not have the time to watch the video. I listened to the first few minutes, and it did not seem to me that Harris was in agreement with his friend. Also, I do not follow atheistic figure heads enough to know precisely what they do or write all the time.

Yikes. Brevity, Hammy...

Yep. Sorry but just too TL.