Chalk it up to different life experiences, I guess?  I know alot of sweet old bigots.

I am not a fan, never take professional atheists seriously. Hammy is just pissed off that guy said something he doesn't like. That is always bad. Who dares to disagree with hammy and his internet grade logic

Ah well. I still remember my twenties.

On the other thing, the idea that certaion responses to bigotry got trump elected.  

I think that's misplaced.  We respond the way we do because we don't want to see it happen.  If we capitulate to current bigotry for fear of some specific future bigotry does it actually matter whether or not we do manage to avoid that specific future bigotry?  We already allowed it in the vain attempt to avoid it.  Six of one, half dozen of another.

If not calling bigots out for being bigots might have avoided a trump - we'd still have a bunch of unopposed bigots running around doing bigoty shit.

(May 28, 2017 at 10:02 am)Hammy Wrote: The bigoted aspects are not "nice".

And yes bigoted old people are annoying. Not "sweet".

I'm not a fan of bigots.

I think this might be part of the problem. Someone holds one opinion that is nasty or that you disagree with, and you cross them out as a person entirely. Humans are a bit more complex than that. Gangsters can be loving fathers and nazis can be animal lovers. Maybe don't take people for either black or white? It sounds a bit BPD-y.

I don't like racists. At all. None. Zero. I have zero tolerance. If a person is racist, yet they're a good parent, I don't give a fuck. I don't like them and we can't be friends. I'm black and white in that aspect. If a person is a bully to lgbt, they're out of my tolerance zone, too. Zero. So, I get it when people get passionate. I just want to be sure I'm not mistaken when I think someone is what I think they are. I've learned that's not always the case.

(May 28, 2017 at 10:51 am)J a c k Wrote:

(May 28, 2017 at 3:46 am)Hammy Wrote: Oh not more of this crap about the liberals being to blame for the right-wing fuckwits who voted Trump in. Sure if we may piss people off further and with good intentions it may have increased votes for Donald Trump... but what's the primary reason the bigoted fuckwits voted for Donald Trump? Their being bigoted fuckwits.

Are you honestly going to pretend that there aren't many, many many bigots in America who all strongly approve of the bigoted language Trump used against Mexicans?


I don't understand this crazy fantasy that there's a such thing as the extreme left. The people who are supposedly so liberal that they are trying to control people's speech aren't liberal. Trying to control speech is the very opposite of liberal.

hammy, no.
Many liberals did in fact fuck up with their purist mentality. It did cost us the election. It wasn't just bigots voting for Trump. It was liberal purists crucifying Clinton and voting for, say, Jill Stein. There is such a thing as the extreme left and that is not a fantasy. Sorry, honey. Also, I just wrote a shit ton of stuff and accidentally closed the window. Fml lol

Yeah it wasn't just bigots voting for Trump... like I said calling people bigots obviously made things worse.

But identifying as liberal doesn't make someone liberal. If someone is trying to shut down free speech that doesn't make them liberal that makes them authoritarian.

My point is that obviously many many bigots voted for Trump for bigoted reasons. Who are the people who hate Mexicans going to vote for, Trump or Hilary?

What would the extreme left be like? I know there are people who identify as left who are extreme. But how can you really be "extremely liberal" if you're trying to shut down free speech?

(May 28, 2017 at 10:51 am)J a c k Wrote: There is such a thing as the extreme left and that is not a fantasy.

I have only ever heard Americans refer to the extreme left, but then those same people think of socialism as akin to communism and assume that it's the route to economic ruin all the while not realising that what prosperous parts of Europe have is what they consider socialism. So I tend to ignore what Americans say when they talk about the extreme left. I just see the poster as being parochial.

(May 28, 2017 at 11:09 am)Longhorn Wrote: I think this might be part of the problem. Someone holds one opinion that is nasty or that you disagree with, and you cross them out as a person entirely.

Bullshit. No I don't. Where the hell did I say it made them any less than a person? I am saying that a bigoted person is a bigot (that's what a bigot is). I'm calling a spade a spade, I'm not saying they're any less of a person.

Quote:Humans are a bit more complex than that.

Duh. No need to be condescending. I'm not saying they're not nice in other respects... I'm saying I have higher standards and I'm not a fan of bigots.

Quote: Gangsters can be loving fathers and nazis can be animal lovers. Maybe don't take people for either black or white? It sounds a bit BPD-y.

I'm not interested in your condescension, your stating of the obvious and your myopic mischaracterisation of me.

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(May 28, 2017 at 11:33 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(May 28, 2017 at 10:51 am)J a c k Wrote: There is such a thing as the extreme left and that is not a fantasy.

I have only ever heard Americans refer to the extreme left, but then those same people think of socialism as akin to communism and assume that it's the route to economic ruin all the while not realising that what prosperous parts of Europe have is what they consider socialism. So I tend to ignore what Americans say when they talk about the extreme left. I just see the poster as being parochial.

What I've noticed is there is nothing liberal or left about this so-called "extreme-left". It's whiny authoritarianism, not liberalism. Being so politically correct that you try to shut down free speech isn't being liberal or pro free speech: it's being authoritarian which is right-wing not left-wing. These are pseudo-liberals who identify as liberal but are actually rather authoritarian in their behavior--they don't practice what they preach that's the problem. They preach free speech but then they try to shut down people's free speech as they scream political correctness. That's not liberal, that's authoritarian.

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(May 28, 2017 at 11:04 am)LastPoet Wrote: I am not a fan, never take professional atheists seriously. Hammy is just pissed off that guy said something he doesn't like. That is always bad. Who dares to disagree with hammy and his internet grade logic

Ah well. I still remember my twenties.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me but they often have a problem with me disagreeing with them

(May 28, 2017 at 11:35 am)Hammy Wrote:

(May 28, 2017 at 11:33 am)Mathilda Wrote: I have only ever heard Americans refer to the extreme left, but then those same people think of socialism as akin to communism and assume that it's the route to economic ruin all the while not realising that what prosperous parts of Europe have is what they consider socialism. So I tend to ignore what Americans say when they talk about the extreme left. I just see the poster as being parochial.

What I've noticed is there is nothing liberal or left about this so-called "extreme-left". It's whiny authoritarianism, not liberalism. Being so politically correct that you try to shut down free speech isn't being liberal or pro free speech: it's being authoritarian which is right-wing not left wing. These are pseudo-liberals who identify as liberal but are actually rather authoritarian in their behavior--they don't practice what they preach that's the problem. They preach free speech but then they try to shut down people's free speech as they scream political correctness. That's not liberal, that's authoritarian.

I'll agree to that. I also agree that it's bullshit that liberals should be blamed for others voting Trump. It's just a nonsensical idea that's not even wrong. It would have to make sense for it to be wrong.

It's like saying that the West are to blame for Islamic bombings, yes.

Sure, calling the bigots bigots may have made them angrier and may have gave Trump some additional voters. But the right-wing voters who are unashamedly proudly bigoted felt like Trump was standing up for them... and they are the reason that Trump got voted in. The liberals blaming themselves is as silly as America blaming itself for 911.