(June 2, 2017 at 8:10 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 2, 2017 at 7:56 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Can I be saved without the death of the better man?

Explain the "better man".

Jesus, numbskull, lets cut to it. Is there salvation apart from christ on the cross?

in your opinion

(June 2, 2017 at 9:05 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(June 2, 2017 at 8:10 pm)Lek Wrote: Explain the "better man".

Jesus, numbskull, lets cut to it. Is there salvation apart from christ on the cross?

in your opinion

I don't take well to being called names, so I'm out of the conversation.

(June 1, 2017 at 6:03 pm)Lek Wrote: Even considering that God would be responsible for us sinning, he himself paid the price for our sins so that it isn't our sinfulness that causes our condemnation, but rather our choice to refuse his gift to us.  Again, the choice is ours.

If he is responsible for making beings who sin, then what...He's paying the price of his own actions? I don't understand...what has that got to do with us? He got exactly what he a) wanted, and b) knew he'd get. What is the problem here? How about he accept that we are exactly as he created us, and so there is no reasonable justification for punishing anyone with eternal torture.

Quote:Finally, even if I come to believe that my sinfulness is God's fault how am I going to proceed from that point?  God made me to be a sinner so he could redeem me and cause me to need to rely totally on him for salvation.

Sorry, but that's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard. Hypothetical: I'm going to make my next born child to be a complete screw-up so that he feels terrible about himself and has to grovel for my forgiveness, and if he doesn't, I'm going to abandon him for the rest of his life. What kind of sick shit is that?

Quote:As far as the consequences of not accepting God's offer, I believe the bible teaches hell, but I don't believe it teaches that any person will be there for eternity.  I'm currently trying to determine whether it teaches some will spend time there and after that will cease to exist or if they would still have the opportunity to accept salvation while in hell.  But this is a matter for a different discussion.)

Okay, so basically..."say my name bitch, and I'll make the pain stop." Lovely. You guys dress it up with as much flowery language as you want...I can't see how the Christian God is anything less than a sociopath.

(June 2, 2017 at 9:24 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 2, 2017 at 9:05 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Jesus, numbskull, lets cut to it. Is there salvation apart from christ on the cross?

in your opinion

I don't take well to being called names, so I'm out of the conversation.

In other words no.  See?

(June 2, 2017 at 10:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(June 2, 2017 at 9:24 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't take well to being called names, so I'm out of the conversation.

In other words no.  See?

If you're concerned about it then you probably didn't. If you're happy about it then maybe you did.

What is it with the thin skin on the christers around here. I mean, it's great on the babies. Makes 'em easier to prepare. But, damn. Your on an atheist site supporting an idea most here consider ludicrous (if not downright laughable) and get all pissy about a very mild insult?

Or, is it just that you can't answer the questions?

(June 2, 2017 at 10:14 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 2, 2017 at 10:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote: In other words no.  See?

If you're concerned about it then you probably didn't.  If you're happy about it then maybe you did.

???

(June 3, 2017 at 5:20 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(June 2, 2017 at 10:14 pm)Lek Wrote: If you're concerned about it then you probably didn't.  If you're happy about it then maybe you did.

???

I assumed you were talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

..........................lol?

(May 31, 2017 at 9:47 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(May 30, 2017 at 10:42 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I'm interested in getting the Christian perspective on my thoughts below.  I've posed them within threads before, but have yet to come across a counter POV.   (I'm sure I'll get plenty here. [emoji41])


If God knew inherently from the "moment" he decided to create humanity that we could never possibly satisfy his ideal, and went ahead with his creation anyway, then he:

1.  failed to fulfill his ideal, and therefore isn't omnipotent.  

2.  is wholly responsible for the failure.  

How could we, as the flawed creation, possibly bear any of the responsibility for our shortcomings?  If I leave my 2-year-old alone in front of plate-full of cookies with instructions not to touch, and he eats one, is it just of me to punish him afterward?  I knew ahead of time the inherent "nature" of my toddler does not allow for that degree of impulse control.  I have set him up to fail.  Is it reasonable to hold him responsible for his disobedience?  

On the other hand, if there was ever a "time" when God envisioned a particular outcome for humanity, but things unfolded differently than he originally intended, then he's not omniscient.  

My understanding of the Christian narrative is that free will was always part of God's plan for humanity.  So, God purposefully rigged humans with a wild card, and then blamed us when the wild card played out exactly as he knew it would?  And further, he manipulated us into believing it was our fault we failed to live up to his expectations, when in fact, it could have gone no other way.  He set up a thinly veiled "test" of righteousness that he knew full well Adam and Eve couldn't pass, and then used the result to lay life-long blame, guilt, and shame onto all of humanity.  

From where I sit, these actions not only call god's supposed Omni-attributes into question, they do not seem to me the actions and decisions of what most would reasonably consider a "just being".  Thoughts?

Except that God provided a rather simple way in which one doesn't have to bear the responsibility of their shortcomings, so there is really no excuse.

The example you gave of your 2 year old is way off base, since a 2 year old isn't a free moral agent.

Say your son is 16 and it's a completely different conversation.

No he/she/it/horse is responsible, Especially when he/she/it/horse is characterized as being ALL KNOWING. If we want to handwave that he/she/it/horse is still at blame because while you have two "adults" they can literally not know any better.