More realistic to work from within the republican party and keep the RINO revolution going than to stick with a party that absolutely refuses to even try consider running taut, efficient campaigns with electable candidates ??

(June 23, 2017 at 6:26 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 5:53 pm)Court Jester Wrote: That's why I'm hoping that they keep it up!!!! I'm hoping for any republican next time around too

That makes you an idiot. The GOP is chomping at the bit to screw 24 million including over 1 million vets out of health care, more tax breaks for the rich that will make Bush Jr's crash look like an economic boom.

We've done the deregulation and don't tax the rich since Reagan and all that has done is gutted the middle class and exploded the pay gap and made it harder and harder for workers to make ends meet.

It astounds me how people can get stupid and vote against their own self interests.

I am a vet. I have the VA and nothing is changing that.
The middle class is screwed because jobs have gone over seas because taxes are lower. That came from both parties.

(June 23, 2017 at 4:34 pm)Aegon Wrote: The division between Bernie and Hillary supporters is no longer about the specific candidates. It's about the Democratic establishment vs ACTUAL liberals. The current Democratic establishment is incapable of defeating Republicans and Trump because they are no more than spineless, uninspiring neoliberals. It's not enough for them to "not be Trump" like they thought would work in November. They need to lay out a progressive platform and appeal to Trump's base the same way Sanders did. For example, what are Dems doing about healthcare? They need to formulate their own improvements on the ACA and show the American people what could be if they win more seats in 2018. Simply going against the awful Republican bill will do nothing. Bernie has created his own legislation for people to get behind, Medicare For All. What has Schumer, Pelosi, etc done? Jackshit

So no, there can be no unity until Democrats wake up and realize what they need to do. That's what these arguments are about.

You Dems need a message. They don't have one. As you said, it's not enough for them to "not be Trump". Trash the progressive platform crap. It cost the Dems the presidential election and it cost the Dems the special elections. All over the country the democrats are losing state and local elections as well. The Dems lost the white male blue collar working class in the rust belt and coal states. These were voters who hadn't voted for a Republican President in thirty plus years. Those voters blamed the Dems for their factories and mines shutting down to please the environmentalists, for imposing more federal regulations, and watching their jobs move to other countries. Trump came along and promised to bring those jobs back. He okayed the Keystone pipeline and eased epa restrictions, to name a few. If the Dems want to win future elections they better figure out a good message to win back their once largest and loyal base, the white male blue collar working class.

(June 23, 2017 at 6:34 pm)Court Jester Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 6:26 pm)Brian37 Wrote: That makes you an idiot. The GOP is chomping at the bit to screw 24 million including over 1 million vets out of health care, more tax breaks for the rich that will make Bush Jr's crash look like an economic boom.

We've done the deregulation and don't tax the rich since Reagan and all that has done is gutted the middle class and exploded the pay gap and made it harder and harder for workers to make ends meet.

It astounds me how people can get stupid and vote against their own self interests.

I am a vet. I have the VA and nothing is changing that.
The middle class is screwed because jobs have gone over seas because taxes are lower. That came from both parties.

I am a vet. My VA benefits were ripped away from me even though I was previously on a 70% disability rating.

(June 23, 2017 at 4:27 pm)Whateverist Wrote: All I know is I voted for her in 2016 but never will again.  She isn't horrible, she is merely unelectable.  The consequences for running someone unelectable against whoever they have in the clown car are obviously too serious to screw around with.

Why is she unelectable?

(June 23, 2017 at 7:35 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 4:27 pm)Whateverist Wrote: All I know is I voted for her in 2016 but never will again.  She isn't horrible, she is merely unelectable.  The consequences for running someone unelectable against whoever they have in the clown car are obviously too serious to screw around with.

Why is she unelectable?

She already lost two bids for the presidency. One to Obama in the democratic primaries before the 2008 general election, and the second, she lost to now President Trump. Besides, she has too much political baggage, she's too establishment, and too much controversy.

(June 23, 2017 at 7:06 pm)A Theist Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 4:34 pm)Aegon Wrote: The division between Bernie and Hillary supporters is no longer about the specific candidates. It's about the Democratic establishment vs ACTUAL liberals. The current Democratic establishment is incapable of defeating Republicans and Trump because they are no more than spineless, uninspiring neoliberals. It's not enough for them to "not be Trump" like they thought would work in November. They need to lay out a progressive platform and appeal to Trump's base the same way Sanders did. For example, what are Dems doing about healthcare? They need to formulate their own improvements on the ACA and show the American people what could be if they win more seats in 2018. Simply going against the awful Republican bill will do nothing. Bernie has created his own legislation for people to get behind, Medicare For All. What has Schumer, Pelosi, etc done? Jackshit

So no, there can be no unity until Democrats wake up and realize what they need to do. That's what these arguments are about.

You Dems need a message. They don't have one. As you said, it's not enough for them to "not be Trump". Trash the progressive platform crap. It cost the Dems the presidential election and it cost the Dems the special elections. All over the country the democrats are losing state and local elections as well. The Dems lost the white male blue collar working class in the rust belt and coal states. These were voters who hadn't voted for a Republican President in thirty plus years. Those voters blamed the Dems for their factories and mines shutting down to please the environmentalists, for imposing more federal regulations, and watching their jobs move to other countries. Trump came along and promised to bring those jobs back. He okayed the Keystone pipeline and eased epa restrictions, to name a few. If the Dems want to win future elections they better figure out a good message to win back their once largest and loyal base, the white male blue collar working class.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...gulations/

A majority of U.S. adults (59%) say stricter environmental laws and regulations are worth the cost, compared with roughly a third (34%) who say such regulations cost too many jobs and hurt the economy, according to the survey, conducted Nov. 30 to Dec. 5.

(June 23, 2017 at 7:45 pm)A Theist Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 7:35 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Why is she unelectable?

She already lost two bids for the presidency. One to Obama in the democratic primaries before the 2008 general election, and the second, she lost to now President Trump. Besides, she has too much political baggage, she's too establishment, and too much controversy.

She won the popular vote. I would not call her unelectable.

(June 23, 2017 at 7:45 pm)A Theist Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 7:35 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Why is she unelectable?

She already lost two bids for the presidency. One to Obama in the democratic primaries before the 2008 general election, and the second, she lost to now President Trump. Besides, she has too much political baggage, she's too establishment, and too much controversy.

Yea it doesn't matter to you that Hillary was vilified even as far back as when she was merely a governor's wife. She was the first first lady who stood out and simply didn't act like a housewife. And she's been attacked wrongfully since. 

Political baggage? Yea I agree, but not because she deserves it, but because we have still far too many idiot men on the right that are still frightened by a minority leading. 

Establishment? Yea ok, sure. Held hostage just like Obama and just like Bill by a GOP that has held the majority of power on average since Reagan. Hard to get things done when you have a bunch of assholes constantly watering things down and or obstructing. 

My only reason for not wanting her to run is because between a minority of her followers, and a minority of Bernie's followers they create a big enough divide we'd give asshole Covfefe 8 years. But do I think she would have made a great president. FUCK YES!

---

(June 23, 2017 at 6:34 pm)Court Jester Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 6:26 pm)Brian37 Wrote: That makes you an idiot. The GOP is chomping at the bit to screw 24 million including over 1 million vets out of health care, more tax breaks for the rich that will make Bush Jr's crash look like an economic boom.

We've done the deregulation and don't tax the rich since Reagan and all that has done is gutted the middle class and exploded the pay gap and made it harder and harder for workers to make ends meet.

It astounds me how people can get stupid and vote against their own self interests.

I am a vet. I have the VA and nothing is changing that.
The middle class is screwed because jobs have gone over seas because taxes are lower. That came from both parties.

No, jobs get overseas because corporate America has no sense of loyalty to invest in the country they get rich in. "The taxes are lower" is BLACKMAIL, not based on supply and demand, but greed.

Those idiots can pay more, but don't want to. And if they would pull their heads out of their asses, and pay workers livable wages, they'd find whatever they initially lose in higher taxes, since WORKERS make the bulk of the buying power, if paid livable wages, the revenue generated by more workers partaking in the market, that would more than make up for the higher taxes. In fact, they would actually pay less in many cases because workers would not be as frequently dependent on government assistance. 

Between WW2 and 1980 the tax rate was much higher, at one point up to 90% but aver deductions 50%, we also had a lower pay gap, a family could live off of one income, and we had far more unions. I can even remember when I was a kid that health insurance was so cheap, that my mom had the choice of paying out of pocket or use her insurance. 

We did the "don't tax the rich" we've done "deregulation" since Reagan and it has only eroded the middle class and sucked the money up to the top.

(June 23, 2017 at 8:14 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 23, 2017 at 7:45 pm)A Theist Wrote: She already lost two bids for the presidency. One to Obama in the democratic primaries before the 2008 general election, and the second, she lost to now President Trump. Besides, she has too much political baggage, she's too establishment, and too much controversy.

Yea it doesn't matter to you that Hillary was vilified even as far back as when she was merely a governor's wife. She was the first first lady who stood out and simply didn't act like a housewife. And she's been attacked wrongfully since. 

Political baggage? Yea I agree, but not because she deserves it, but because we have still far too many idiot men on the right that are still frightened by a minority leading. 

Establishment? Yea ok, sure. Held hostage just like Obama and just like Bill by a GOP that has held the majority of power on average since Reagan. Hard to get things done when you have a bunch of assholes constantly watering things down and or obstructing. 

My only reason for not wanting her to run is because between a minority of her followers, and a minority of Bernie's followers they create a big enough divide we'd give asshole Covfefe 8 years. But do I think she would have made a great president. FUCK YES!

---

(June 23, 2017 at 6:34 pm)Court Jester Wrote: I am a vet. I have the VA and nothing is changing that.
The middle class is screwed because jobs have gone over seas because taxes are lower. That came from both parties.

No, jobs get overseas because corporate America has no sense of loyalty to invest in the country they get rich in. "The taxes are lower" is BLACKMAIL, not based on supply and demand, but greed.

Those idiots can pay more, but don't want to. And if they would pull their heads out of their asses, and pay workers livable wages, they'd find whatever they initially lose in higher taxes, since WORKERS make the bulk of the buying power, if paid livable wages, the revenue generated by more workers partaking in the market, that would more than make up for the higher taxes. In fact, they would actually pay less in many cases because workers would not be as frequently dependent on government assistance. 

Between WW2 and 1980 the tax rate was much higher, at one point up to 90% but aver deductions 50%, we also had a lower pay gap, a family could live off of one income, and we had far more unions. I can even remember when I was a kid that health insurance was so cheap, that my mom had the choice of paying out of pocket or use her insurance. 

We did the "don't tax the rich" we've done "deregulation" since Reagan and it has only eroded the middle class and sucked the money up to the top.

Why would corporations pay livable wages when the underpaid workers can seek government help, thus subsidizing their greed and stinginess?