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"Cultural Appropriation"
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
Oh, there's definitely fascism on the left and the right. Are we going to ignore that a left-wing nutjob just shot at people for being Republican? Sure, it's less nationalist that the right-wing brand, but the authoritarian vibes are barely distinguishable from one another.
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
That is neither new, facism, or of the left.  Nor is it what Benny pointed to -as- the new facism of the left...which is what -I- contend doesn't exist.   

Benny seems to have been lulled by the narrative that bigots doing genteel racism somehow have that right, that freedom,and that calling their genteel racism bigotry out in the open, repeatedly, and vehemenently...is the "new facism of the left".   That anti white hetero bigotry has somehow managed to match traditional bigotries.  That this is the new facism of the left.  That people are being demonized by others for disagreeing...rather than demonizing -themselves- by holding such opinions.  This is the new facism of the left.

He seems to think that cultural appropriation is somehow related to the new facism of the left...when it is in fact related to the old and current exploitation of oppressed people, contributing to the history and current reality of inequality between oppressed and oppressor.  That is what people who stand up and out against cultural appropriation stand up and out against.  They, apparently, are some of the new facists of the left.  

Do you have an opinion on that, which is what we were discussing?  

-Now...for the sidebar.  Is there any -reason- to ignore the left wing nutjob?  No.  But it's nothing new.  Nutjubs from both sides have done strange things without it being indicative of facism in either side.  They've done this for as long as we've been a country, hell...longer.  We have a long history of domestic terrorism.  I would, however, like to point out that we do not need to refer to some right wing nutball shooter...at present, to establish where any facism might actually lie.  We have theocrats in office.  We have an alt-white potus.  We have a democratic party courting fascists -and- fascism in order to chase the vote of "the other side's moderates". Hillary fumbled when she accurately described these people as deplorables. That was the problem..not that they -were- deplorables.

As an observer to this little squabble between parties it would be high comedy if the actual effect weren't so pitilessly shitty.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 27, 2017 at 11:17 am)Khemikal Wrote: That is neither new, facism, or of the left.  Nor is it what Benny pointed to -as- the new facism of the left...which is what -I- contend doesn't exist.

The aggressiveness of it certainly feels new. Yes, it is fascism or at least attempts at fascism. Neither side has been successful at actually being fascist.

Quote:Do you have an opinion on that, which is what we were discussing?

Nope. I don't have to have an opinion for every nuance of the discussion. I was responding to one aspect of your conversation, about which Benny's statement makes some sense. Don't mistake that for agreeing with Benny or disagreeing with you on the topic. I'm simply pointing out that the far left is indistinguishable from the far right in many aspects. If right wingers are fascist, so are far left wingers.

Quote:Nutjubs from both sides have done strange things without it being indicative of facism in either side.

It's always been indicative of individuals on each side of the spectrum trying to push for their distinctly fascist agendas. Of course, these are the crazy outliers, but let's call it like it is.

Quote:I would, however, like to point out that we do not need to refer to some right wing nutball shooter...at present, to establish where any facism might actually lie.  We have theocrats in office.  We have an alt-white potus.  We have a democratic party courting fascists -and- fascism in order to chase the vote of "the other side's moderates".  Hillary fumbled when she accurately described these people as deplorables.  That was the problem..not that they -were- deplorables.

Where you have to point is irrelevant. Far left, far right–they're all fucking looney tunes.
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 27, 2017 at 11:34 am)Shell B Wrote:
(June 27, 2017 at 11:17 am)Khemikal Wrote: That is neither new, facism, or of the left.  Nor is it what Benny pointed to -as- the new facism of the left...which is what -I- contend doesn't exist.

The aggressiveness of it certainly feels new. Yes, it is fascism or at least attempts at fascism. Neither side has been successful at actually being fascist.
I'm not sure how pointing to one individual is even discussing what the "sides" are doing.  

Quote:Nope. I don't have to have an opinion for every nuance of the discussion. I was responding to one aspect of your conversation, about which Benny's statement makes some sense. Don't mistake that for agreeing with Benny or disagreeing with you on the topic. I'm simply pointing out that the far left is indistinguishable from the far right in many aspects. If right wingers are fascist, so are far left wingers.
Sure.  You can find a facist at the far end of either side-ish. This was not Bennys statement, this is -your- statement. Bennys statements were regarding all that "nuance". Sure, your statement makes sense, in the main part..that there are crazies at both ends - though fascism explicitly denotes a far right bent. The far authoritarian left...are socialists, lol.


His statements...however, don't.

Quote:It's always been indicative of individuals on each side of the spectrum trying to push for their distinctly fascist agendas. Of course, these are the crazy outliers, but let's call it like it is.
You did just call it like it is.  Crazy outliers.  I forgive both sides for their crazy outliers (lol).  Crazy is gonna crazy cuz crazy.  I concern myself not with crazies...but with sane fascists.  With facism in the mainstream, not on the edge of the wilderness.  With fascism in the statehouse, not the shithouse. I don't concern myself at all with socialism, with the authoritarian left..because that has a snowballs chance in hell in america. Even the socialists won't vote for it.

Quote:Where you have to point is irrelevant. Far left, far right–they're all fucking looney tunes.
Yes, individual looneytoons are all looneytunes...but the phrase "new facism of the left" seems to promise more than a few looney toons - to promise more than people calling bigots bigots.  Meanwhile, the same old familiar fascism delivers at the statehouse.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
Ths thread is going off into the realms of fantasy the way threads do when khemical gets involved.

Cultural apropriation isn't directly harmful.

It isn't a white master raping a black slave woman in some fields, or led Zeppelin stealing song ideas off black blues artists, or a white colonist stealing land.

Those things are all wrong because they involve stealing, the rape, the land stealing, the stealing of actual song lyrics and riffs are wrong because of the stealing, a white man who raped a black woman isn't wrong because of any reason to do with culture, it's because he's having sex with her by force.

The apropriation of culture, whatever that means, isn't the problem, it's the violent unprovoked force.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 27, 2017 at 11:58 am)Khemikal Wrote: I'm not sure how pointing to one individual is even discussing what the "sides" are doing.  

Citing an example is perfectly acceptable. There are plenty more examples of aggressive leftism.

Quote:Sure.  You can find a facist at the far end of either side. This was not Bennys statement, this is -your- statemen.  Bennys statements were regarding all that "nuance".  Sure, your statement makes sense, in the main part..that there are crazies at both ends - though fascism explicitly denotes a far right bent.  The far authoritarian left...are socialists, lol.  

Ah, but you could put forth a "no true socialist" argument, I am sure. I'm fairly certain, though I can't pretend I've read all your posts, given that I was responding to only one of them, that Benny didn't say all leftists are fascists. If he did, I agree. He didn't have all that nuance.


Quote:I concern myself not with crazies...but with sane fascists.  With facism in the mainstream, not on the edge of the wilderness.

Sure, they're a problem. So are outliers. Outliers kill people. Outliers are loud and get both sides chomping at the bit for each other.

Basically, I'm here to say both sides are pissing me off. When one pretends they're better than the other, they're kidding themselves.

(June 27, 2017 at 12:02 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Ths thread is going off into the realms of fantasy the way threads do when khemical gets involved.

Cultural apropriation isn't directly harmful.

It isn't a white master raping a black slave woman in some fields, or led Zeppelin stealing song ideas off black blues artists, or a white colonist stealing land.

Those things are all wrong because they involve stealing, the rape, the land stealing, the stealing of actual song lyrics and riffs are wrong because of the stealing, a white man who raped a black woman isn't wrong because of any reason to do with culture, it's because he's having sex with her by force.

The apropriation of culture, whatever that means, isn't the problem, it's the violent unprovoked force.

I'm not sure khemical sends threads spinning off into fantasy land, but I agree with the rest of your post completely. "Cultural appropriation" may sometimes happen in the wake of horrible crimes, but it is not in itself a bad thing.
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 27, 2017 at 12:10 pm)Shell B Wrote: Citing an example is perfectly acceptable. There are plenty more examples of aggressive leftism.
What was leftist about it?  Is it the lefts position that rebulicans should be shot?  Is it the position of authoritarian socialism that private citizens should be engaged in the assassination of political dissidents?  

A crazy leftist does not equal aggressive leftism.  So, maybe some other example (I know there are plenty)?  Aggressive leftism is -not- killing dissidents, whereas aggressive rightism is facism.  



Quote:Ah, but you could put forth a "no true socialist" argument, I am sure. I'm fairly certain, though I can't pretend I've read all your posts, given that I was responding to only one of them, that Benny didn't say all leftists are fascists. If he did, I agree. He didn't have all that nuance.
\
Plenty of true socialists™ have done horrible things.......that goes without saying though,..doesn't it?   

Quote:Sure, they're a problem. So are outliers. Outliers kill people. Outliers are loud and get both sides chomping at the bit for each other.

Basically, I'm here to say both sides are pissing me off. When one pretends they're better than the other, they're kidding themselves.
Yes, "both sides" piss me off too.  Both sides, however, are not fascism - not even in the extremities, certainly not where Benny pointed it out..and even though both sides do have crazies, authoritarians, and can be aggressive. That is the sole purvey of a single side, wherein it is no longer an issue of the crazies, but mainstream...and elected to highest public office. These -actual- fascists apparently feel that the way tpo deflect criticism of their being facists, is to say "No fascism, not a fascist, you're the fascist"..and unfortunately, some people believe them.

Quote:I'm not sure khemical sends threads spinning off into fantasy land, but I agree with the rest of your post completely. "Cultural appropriation" may sometimes happen in the wake of horrible crimes, but it is not in itself a bad thing.
Cultural appropriation isn't the wake, it's the wave. The wake, is, for example, a culture like ours with a horrible history of cultural appropriation becoming, perjhaps to the horror of our ancestors...a multicultural society precisely -because- of that cultural appropriation.  Yes, it's always a bad thing -for the people who are it's victims-...even if it's not always a bad thing for us..the inheritors of that appropriated wealth.

Consider this.  By and large, what african america knew about their own heritage after bondage was largely what we had decided to keep, since it had "flavor".  Now, we could..if we were a usual suspect™, characterize this as cultural appropriation being a good thing..because what would they have known if we hadn't done that?  We saved their history!

To anyone who isn't a usual suspect™, the cruel indifference required to propose such a thing is sickening.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
Who is the victim in cultural apropriation and what is it about the adaption of their culture that caused them harm?

And I'm not talking about theft of land, rape, theft of specific intellectual property like song lyrics or musical riffs.

Those people are victims of rape and theft, not having their culture appropriated.

Who are the victims of people from one culture adapting or using methods from another culture in the way people style their hair, play their music, build their buildings.

The only people who are harmed that I can think of are the people who are doing the apropriating, when it comes adapting harmful aspects of certain cultures, such as genital mutilation, drinking, gambling whatever else.

I don't catagorize white people enslaving black peoples and selectively portraying their history as good or bad cultural apropriation.

It has nothing to do with cultural apropriation.

It's slavery and selective history portrayal.
Nothing to do with the topic which is use or adaption of elements of one culture by people of another culture.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





Reply
RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 27, 2017 at 12:21 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What was leftist about it?  Is it the lefts position that rebulicans should be shot?  Is it the position of authoritarian socialism that private citizens should be engaged in the assassination of political dissidents?  

A crazy leftist does not equal aggressive leftism.  So, maybe some other example (I know there are plenty)?  Aggressive leftism is -not- killing dissidents, whereas aggressive rightism is facism.  

Is this the only place you hang out on the Internet?



Quote:Plenty of true socialists™ have done horrible things.......that goes without saying though,..doesn't it?   

Well, no. Your argument seems to be that socialism can't be fascist. It absolutely can. These are not mutually exclusive things. Just because something's an ism doesn't mean it occurs in a vacuum of isms.

Quote:Yes, "both sides" piss me off too.  Both sides, however, are not fascism - not even in the extremities, certainly not where Benny pointed it out..and even though both sides do have crazies, authoritarians, and can be aggressive.  That is the sole purvey of a single side, wherein it is no longer an issue of the crazies, but mainstream...and elected to highest public office. These -actual- fascists apparently feel that the way tpo deflect criticism of their being facists, is to say "No fascism, not a fascist, you're the fascist"..and unfortunately, some people believe them.

They can certainly both be fascists, both the finger pointer and the pointee.

Quote:Cultural appropriation isn't the wake, it's the wave. The wake, is, for example, a culture like ours with a horrible history of cultural appropriation becoming, perjhaps to the horror of our ancestors...a multicultural society precisely -because- of that cultural appropriation.  Yes, it's always a bad thing -for the people who are it's victims-...even if it's not always a bad thing for us..the inheritors of that appropriated wealth.

You're talking about stealing wealth, not cultural appropriation. A pizza is culturally appropriated. A baguette the same. You're looking at instances where people wound up with culture because of some horrible colonization. You're ignoring the vast majority of cultural appropriation, which simply occurs because people travel. Go figure.

Quote:Consider this.  By and large, what african america knew about their own heritage after bondage was largely what we had decided to keep, since it had "flavor".  Now, we could..if we were a usual suspect™, characterize this as cultural appropriation being a good thing..because what would they have known if we hadn't done that?  We saved their history!

To anyone who isn't a usual suspect™, the cruel indifference required to propose such a thing is sickening.

The part where bits of their culture were saved is morally neutral. What they did to come about that culture is horrific. People enjoying that culture today is neutral. Not using any of that culture at all for anyone's enjoyment will not stop what happened or make restitution for it. Furthermore, knowing that people in the future would ignore the culture stolen from these people would not have demotivated slavers from keeping slaves. I will never feel personally guilty for that which people did hundreds of years before me. I will not suggest that people refrain from enjoying African-American culture because of it, either. Not to mention the fact that most of what we know of African culture comes from actual Africa and not what slavers "saved." That culture is still well alive. I know this is a tough one, but we know this because we travel.
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RE: "Cultural Appropriation"
(June 27, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Shell B Wrote:
(June 27, 2017 at 12:21 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What was leftist about it?  Is it the lefts position that rebulicans should be shot?  Is it the position of authoritarian socialism that private citizens should be engaged in the assassination of political dissidents?  

A crazy leftist does not equal aggressive leftism.  So, maybe some other example (I know there are plenty)?  Aggressive leftism is -not- killing dissidents, whereas aggressive rightism is facism.  

Is this the only place you hang out on the Internet?
Is the internet the statehouse or the shithouse?  The seat of power, or the throne of crazy?


Quote:Well, no. Your argument seems to be that socialism can't be fascist. It absolutely can. These are not mutually exclusive things. Just because something's an ism doesn't mean it occurs in a vacuum of isms.
They are, actually, mutually exclusive things.  Fascism is a form of far right authoritarianism.  Something being far right excludes it from being far left.  

Quote:They can certainly both be fascists, both the finger pointer and the pointee.
-not if one of them is on the left, and the other the right.  It would be a far left authoritarian socialist pointing a finger at a far right authoritarian fascist.  I'm neither, and neither are the people expressing the reality of cultural appropriation.
Quote:You're talking about stealing wealth, not cultural appropriation. A pizza is culturally appropriated. A baguette the same. You're looking at instances where people wound up with culture because of some horrible colonization. You're ignoring the vast majority of cultural appropriation, which simply occurs because people travel. Go figure.
Cultural wealth -and- actual wealth, Shell.  When our black person hating and oppressing culture took black music..got themselves a white boy to sing it - and then profited from it, while denying the proceeds even to the people who wrote the damned songs and were still alive...that was a textbook example of cultural appropriation.  Great songs, sure, I enjoy them. People are free to enjoy them..though, I imagine some of that enjoyment must have been lost on the people from whom they were stolen.......

Quote:The part where bits of their culture were saved is morally neutral.
It;s really not, because the stuff we saved was convenient to our narrative of them at the time..and not representative of their culture.  We kept the bits that furthered our cause of dehumanization and oppression...and some of it, well...we just made it up.  Nothing about it was morally neutral.

Quote:What they did to come about that culture is horrific. People enjoying that culture today is neutral.
Agreed, but people denying that cultural appropriation took place, or arguing that it was a good thing by reference to how it all ended up today (laying aside that it doesn't seem to have ended up all that well) or how we got cool stuff out of it, and by consitently ignoring that cultural appropriation was never about -them-..but what had been done to others........is not neutral. Go, enjoy our culture....all of it.  Just don;t stick your head in the sand when somebody brings up the shittier elements of how we got parts of that culture.  I'm absolutely certain that I don't need to tell you this....but I seem to have to explain it over and over to the usual suspects™.  

Quote: Not using any of that culture at all for anyone's enjoyment will not stop what happened or make restitution for it. Furthermore, knowing that people in the future would ignore the culture stolen from these people would not have demotivated slavers from keeping slaves. I will never feel personally guilty for that which people did hundreds of years before me. I will not suggest that people refrain from enjoying African-American culture because of it, either. Not to mention the fact that most of what we know of African culture comes from actual Africa and not what slavers "saved." That culture is still well alive. I know this is a tough one, but we know this because we travel.
Exactly why the usual suspects "should I stop listening to rap" bit is nonsensical.  Precisely why I say there will be no acres or mules or royalty checks.  You do not have to feel personally guilty, no one does..that;s not what cultural appropriation is about..and one does not have to feel guilty simply for acknowledging that yes..it happend..and yes..it was bad.  It seems, though, that in this flight from white guilt the usual suspects™ end up saying or doing things they -should- feel guilty for.  Because the things they say and do today cannot be washed away by saying "well, I didn't do that personally".  

Most of what -we- know now..yes, but not what african america knew at the end of bondage, Shell.  They only knew what we had told them. They had not traveled...nor had we, in manufacturing that cultural identity.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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