Never!

(June 29, 2017 at 12:57 am)Godscreated Wrote:   Never!

That's brilliant! Now how exactly would you go about proving that? Because the way the evidence points, not only is the idea of spirit preposterous but the description is not merely misleading but literally the most deplorable description of any character ever conceived. Or were you going to say that the holy book you base your ideas on is unreliable? Because I'd be okay with that.

The topic is interesting to contemplate in regards to the Mormons.

Starting with Joe Smith, the legendary befuddlement regarding his take on the Holy Spirit begins. Joe keeps thrashing around, appending and revising his astonishingly flexible theology, and his incredibly changeable God issues revelations and repeated corrections and updates and revisions to those revelations at a blistering pace.

Church scribes endeavor to keep pace with the onslaught of confusion regarding Holy Spirit,

-and then-

the succession crisis and then Brigham Young jumps in and tries to fix things and makes it worse. Yes, not having a body is a punishment, especially if you're destined to become a negro, BUT, in the case of the Holy Spirit, not having a body is not a punishment.

And, oh, by the way, the Holy Spirit is NOT God's wife.


So when we enter Mormonland, instead of misleading you, the Mormons are misleading the Holy Spirit about just about everything they expect 'it' to be.

(June 29, 2017 at 1:15 am)vorlon13 Wrote: The topic is interesting to contemplate in regards to the Mormons.

Starting with Joe Smith, the legendary befuddlement regarding his take on the Holy Spirit begins.  Joe keeps thrashing around, appending and revising his astonishingly flexible theology, and his incredibly changeable God issues revelations and repeated corrections and updates and revisions to those revelations at a blistering pace.

Church scribes endeavor to keep pace with the onslaught of confusion regarding Holy Spirit,

-and then-

the succession crisis and then Brigham Young jumps in and tries to fix things and makes it worse.  Yes, not having a body is a punishment, especially if you're destined to become a negro, BUT, in the case of the Holy Spirit, not having a body is not a punishment.

And, oh, by the way, the Holy Spirit is NOT God's wife.


So when we enter Mormonland, instead of misleading you, the Mormons are misleading the Holy Spirit about just about everything they expect 'it' to be.

You know, when I talk to Mormons, they tell me all the things that make Smith sound bad (the conviction for fraud, the death in prison, the stealing wives from his followers through violence, trickery or coercion) and all, isn't true. Soooooo fucking annoying. I mean, it's one thing for them to refuse to acknowledge the shit in their holy book, but to deny the reality of things outside of that, too? That's too fucking much.

Yeah, they're vile brainwashed shits.

The most damning evidence against Joe Smith was published by their own Mormon bought and operated presses and distributed in their own publications to their own members.

Hell, some of the damn witnesses to the book of Mormon were EXCOMMUNICATED !!

Do the fucking missionaries ever tell any potential recruit about that ???

(June 29, 2017 at 1:31 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Yeah, they're vile brainwashed shits.

The most damning evidence against Joe Smith was published by their own Mormon bought and operated  presses and distributed in their own publications to their own members.

Hell, some of the damn witnesses to the book of Mormon were EXCOMMUNICATED !!

Do the fucking missionaries ever tell any potential recruit about that ???

This is why I like my idea for the approach to dealing with door-to-door evangelists of all stripes. Based on whatever faith they're with, I can give them a 10-question true or false quiz about some of the most fucked-up shit they believe in and probably don't really know or understand. If they get all 10, I'll talk to them, but because they'll have likely learned something foul, or at least that I have their number, they'll either be forced to confront that ugly truth or not have anything new to teach me.

(June 27, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 27, 2017 at 6:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Then please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12:

'For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.'

If the message of the Holy Spirit is always true, why does God deliberately delude people?

Boru

If you read the preceding and following verses you will discover that he is referring to people who already refuse to believe God.  It says that he will cause these people to believe and follow the man of lawlessness.  It's not that the Spirit is lying to them, but rather that God is withholding the Spirit from them so that they will naturally be deceived by the man of lawlessness.

I've read the surrounding verses, tyvm, and 2 Thess. 2:11-12 isn't out of context, as much as you'd like it to be.  Read it again.  'God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie' clearly implies that if God hadn't stepped in, then these people might have changed their minds and repented.  In other words, the HS is not always to be trusted.

Further, there's nothing in the verse about God withholding anything. 'Send' is an active verb. God performed an action which deluded people.

Why do your lot spend so much energy telling people that the Bible doesn't mean what it says?

Boru

(June 28, 2017 at 7:40 pm)Lek Wrote: This is the way I see it.  God reveals himself to everyone.  Those who truly seek him will find him.  They may never have heard or read the bible or know his name, but they will know Jesus if they truly desire to know God.  I also don't believe that anyone will stay in hell "forever and ever and ever".

Seems like the second and third sentences are contradictory.  Is he revealed to everyone, or just those who look for him? And how can they desire what they know nothing of?

(June 28, 2017 at 11:45 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 2:16 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Your doctrinal statements are almost as believable as human beings being deposited into dormant volcanos by space aliens in 50 million BCE.

What points do you disagree with?

I was making a joke.

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(June 28, 2017 at 7:37 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 7:12 pm)Jehanne Wrote: So, everyone is born for Heaven, but if some should have the misfortune of embracing the religion of their pagan/infidel parents, then they are consigned to eternal Hell, forever and ever and ever?

There is just literally no defense for the ineptness of any deity who wants to communicate with their creation and yet resorts to every doomed-to-fail means of delivering any message at all. All responsibility is on the deity and anyone who wants to say that we're just 'not listening' or we need to 'open our heart' needs massive electroshock therapy.

Some would say that you have no right to Heaven, the Beatific Vision, and because of the original sin of Adam & Eve (who never existed), you deserve eternal Hell, infants included.

(June 29, 2017 at 11:47 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(June 28, 2017 at 11:45 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: What points do you disagree with?

I was making a joke.

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(June 28, 2017 at 7:37 pm)Astonished Wrote: There is just literally no defense for the ineptness of any deity who wants to communicate with their creation and yet resorts to every doomed-to-fail means of delivering any message at all. All responsibility is on the deity and anyone who wants to say that we're just 'not listening' or we need to 'open our heart' needs massive electroshock therapy.

Some would say that you have no right to Heaven, the Beatific Vision, and because of the original sin of Adam & Eve (who never existed), you deserve eternal Hell, infants included.

Ignoring the fact that it's all actually Yahweh's fuck-up once again. Poor security in the garden that allowed the snake in, poor design in creating the snake and enabling it to speak, programming into the humans that fatal curiosity, putting the tree there in the first place, not putting anything around it to make them think twice about whether the effort of reaching it would be worth it, not surrounding it with more tempting things to distract them, expecting them to understand consequences without foreknowledge of good and evil...
I mean, if we were to take this to court as a liability suit, Yahweh would get his ass sued off every fucking time.