(July 19, 2017 at 3:01 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 18, 2017 at 10:53 am)Inkfeather132 Wrote: I don't understand how god could just exist and never be created, since I can't understand this, I conclude that something created him. This is now evidence that their is a god superior to yours. See? This is still an argument from ignorance, you don't know therefore x. There are lots of other hypothesis other than the Big Bang to explain the universe. I'm not familiar with them as I only read about them once when I was bored in Astronomy 101. I remember one seemed to be a continuous cycle of expansion and collapse. This is not evidence for any god, it's not evidence that your god did it (as opposed to Odin, or Allah), and it certainly provides no evidence for any of this god's properties.

 We know that materials can not self generate from nothing, so you see I started with accepted evidence and went from there. Your example went from "don't understand to never to can't understand" and then a conclusion. There are other ideas but they are not generally promoted by science, and none of them have any reasoning as to where the original materials came from. You don't accept it but at least I have an explanation.

GC

What makes you think everything popped into existence in its current form?  When a star is initially formed what is it made of?  If it's made of celestial hydrogen that goes nuclear where do the heavier elements, such as oxygen, carbon, and iron come from?  

Everything in the universe is the result of evolutionary forces.  Strings create quantum foam; quantum foam creates subatomic particles.  Those particles evolve and create hydrogen, which coalesces into balls that form stars.  The stars cook the hydrogen into heavier elements.  The process is continuous.

(July 18, 2017 at 10:59 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Godscreated Wrote:Putting me on ignore want keep God away and since you think it best for us to stop then that's okay with me.

GG

Someone putting you on ignore has nothing to do with keeping God away. God or no God, you're not him, not equivalent to him, and not his personal representative on earth. Passive aggressive much?

Jesster understood what I was saying and that's all that matters since this was meant for Jesster. Oh yes, I'm a representative of God on earth, Paul taught this in his writings.
Why do you think God gave us ways to live by, to make life harder for us, not hardly.

GC

Godscreated Wrote:Okay consider it a question, where did the material come from? It was never meant to throw the conversation off track, it was intended to show you that certain secular claims are not provable yet widely accepted as fact.

GC

Mister A Wrote:Any claim that doesn't have to do with theology is by default a secular claim. That doesn't mean it's our claim.

This one is and you know it.

Mister A Wrote:Here's something provable: if we haven't the slightest notion of where the material came for, it doesn't make you explanation a single atom's worth of additional weight. It's an argument from ignorance, like saying that if we don't know what happens to all the people who disappear every year, we have to take the theory that they're being abducted by aliens more seriously. We don't. If it's not known, it's not known, full stop. Any hypothesis for an explanation will have to overcome the null hypothesis of 'no, that isn't it'.

Just because you do not believe in God that doesn't make my statement invalid and it gives an explanation of how the universe started. You have no beginning, other than it was just there, stuff of fairy tales. No one has ever shown how life can self generate from chemicals, evolution has major problems at every turn, there is no evidence of how anything gets started with evolution.

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Godscreated Wrote:A bit of difference with God, He has always been, never created. Don't ask me how that is possible because I can only say I can't even imagine how that's possible, most likely not understandable by man anyway.

GC

Mister A Wrote:And you know that's true because God told you.

Yes, God doesn't lie he's proven this to me.
 

Mister A Wrote:'When you believe in things you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition ain't the way.

 You have nothing because you have no first cause of the start of the universe nor life itself.

GC

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(July 18, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(July 18, 2017 at 8:46 am)Godscreated Wrote: Material can not self generate from nothing

That looks like a positive declaration.  You know this precisely how?  (Note, that I'm using "know" in the sense that epistemologists use it, not your equivocating bullshit sense).

 It's never been demonstrated and it's an accepted fact. 

GC

(July 19, 2017 at 3:01 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 18, 2017 at 10:53 am)Inkfeather132 Wrote: I don't understand how god could just exist and never be created, since I can't understand this, I conclude that something created him. This is now evidence that their is a god superior to yours. See? This is still an argument from ignorance, you don't know therefore x. There are lots of other hypothesis other than the Big Bang to explain the universe. I'm not familiar with them as I only read about them once when I was bored in Astronomy 101. I remember one seemed to be a continuous cycle of expansion and collapse. This is not evidence for any god, it's not evidence that your god did it (as opposed to Odin, or Allah), and it certainly provides no evidence for any of this god's properties.

 We know that materials can not self generate from nothing, so you see I started with accepted evidence and went from there. Your example went from "don't understand to never to can't understand" and then a conclusion. There are other ideas but they are not generally promoted by science, and none of them have any reasoning as to where the original materials came from. You don't accept it but at least I have an explanation.

GC

Show me the scientific journal that provides evidence that materials cannot self generate please. And then get back on topic. Where is your evidence that god exists?

Godscreated Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Someone putting you on ignore has nothing to do with keeping God away. God or no God, you're not him, not equivalent to him, and not his personal representative on earth. Passive aggressive much?

Jesster understood what I was saying and that's all that matters since this was meant for Jesster. Oh yes, I'm a representative of God on earth, Paul taught this in his writings.
Why do you think God gave us ways to live by, to make life harder for us, not hardly.

GC

So when you speak, you're speaking for God. Gotcha. I'd think the omniscient all-powerful creator of the universe would make his personal representatives seem less petty.

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[

Godscreated Wrote:Okay consider it a question, where did the material come from? It was never meant to throw the conversation off track, it was intended to show you that certain secular claims are not provable yet widely accepted as fact.

GC

Mister A Wrote:Any claim that doesn't have to do with theology is by default a secular claim. That doesn't mean it's our claim.

This one is and you know it.

Arrogant much? The origin of the universe is necessarily speculative at this point given current available evidence. The most any explanation can have going for it is math that works and conformity with what we already know. Any specific explanation for the universe is not a scientific fact, and anyone who claims it is, is mistaken. Of course, my not knowing exactly how the universe began does not add an atom's weight to your claim about how the universe began. My ignorance is not evidence of your correctness. See 'argument from ignorance'. You might also want to learn the difference between a hypothesis and a fact.

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Godscreated Wrote:

Mister A Wrote:Here's something provable: if we haven't the slightest notion of where the material came for, it doesn't make you explanation a single atom's worth of additional weight. It's an argument from ignorance, like saying that if we don't know what happens to all the people who disappear every year, we have to take the theory that they're being abducted by aliens more seriously. We don't. If it's not known, it's not known, full stop. Any hypothesis for an explanation will have to overcome the null hypothesis of 'no, that isn't it'.

Just because you do not believe in God that doesn't make my statement invalid and it gives an explanation of how the universe started. You have no beginning, other than it was just there, stuff of fairy tales. No one has ever shown how life can self generate from chemicals, evolution has major problems at every turn, there is no evidence of how anything gets started with evolution.

You are quite right that it is not me being an atheist that makes your statement invalid. The Hopi Indians have an explanation for how the universe started too, and they also avoid all that nasty scientific stuff. Do you think the Hopi story is supported by lack of a way to confirm the several scientific hypotheses on the universe's origin? If not, does that lack of consistency trouble you in any way?

If I understood evolution as badly as you do, I wouldn't believe it either.

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Godscreated Wrote:A bit of difference with God, He has always been, never created. Don't ask me how that is possible because I can only say I can't even imagine how that's possible, most likely not understandable by man anyway.

GC

Mister A Wrote:And you know that's true because God told you.

Yes, God doesn't lie he's proven this to me.[/quote]

And your intellect is so vast that you couldn't possibly misinterpret what the being you're taking to with your mind is telling you, and so vast that it's capable of evaluating the truthfulness of the entity you're mentally contacting forever, past and future. Yet this being never tells you anything that would impress anyone scrutinizing your claims here, like telling you what the headline of the New York Times on August 26, 2017 is going to be today. That sure would be a head-scratcher, but the voice you're hearing leaves you without effective ammunition.

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Godscreated Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:'When you believe in things you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition ain't the way.

 You have nothing because you have no first cause of the start of the universe nor life itself.

GC

Honest ignorance is an infinitely superior moral position to just-so stories. And please, for the sake of being a good representative of the deity in which you believe; learn why the argument from ignorance is fallacious.

(July 19, 2017 at 3:29 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 18, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: That looks like a positive declaration.  You know this precisely how?  (Note, that I'm using "know" in the sense that epistemologists use it, not your equivocating bullshit sense).

 It's never been demonstrated and it's an accepted fact. 

GC

Not amongst physicists.  You know, the guys that actually study such things. Amongst the religious laiety it may be accepted fact. You know, the people who don't actually study such things.

So, as usual, you know no such thing.

ETA: Also, you appear to be equivocating on the meaning of "know". I was quite clear the sense of the word I am using here (something akin to "justified true belief"). You haven't justified it, and the truth value of your claim is unknown and possibly unknowable.

What hubris. You know what your bible has to say about pride, yes?

(July 19, 2017 at 1:15 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(July 19, 2017 at 3:29 am)Godscreated Wrote:  It's never been demonstrated and it's an accepted fact. 

GC

Not amongst physicists.  You know, the guys that actually study such things.  Amongst the religious laiety it may be accepted fact.  You know, the people who don't actually study such things.

So, as usual, you know no such thing.

ETA:  Also, you appear to be equivocating on the meaning of "know".  I was quite clear the sense of the word I am using here (something akin to "justified true belief").  You haven't justified it, and the truth value of your claim is unknown and possibly unknowable.

What hubris.  You know what your bible has to say about pride, yes?

 I'm not acting with pride, I'm stating fact and you know it. I've not heard of physicists saying that something can generate itself from nothing and just saying they believe it doesn't justify anything, nor does it make it true.

GC

(July 20, 2017 at 12:27 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 19, 2017 at 1:15 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Not amongst physicists.  You know, the guys that actually study such things.  Amongst the religious laiety it may be accepted fact.  You know, the people who don't actually study such things.

So, as usual, you know no such thing.

ETA:  Also, you appear to be equivocating on the meaning of "know".  I was quite clear the sense of the word I am using here (something akin to "justified true belief").  You haven't justified it, and the truth value of your claim is unknown and possibly unknowable.

What hubris.  You know what your bible has to say about pride, yes?

 I'm not acting with pride, I'm stating fact and you know it. I've not heard of physicists saying that something can generate itself from nothing and just saying they believe it doesn't justify anything, nor does it make it true.

GC

If only we had a physicist we could ask...

(July 20, 2017 at 12:27 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 19, 2017 at 1:15 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Not amongst physicists.  You know, the guys that actually study such things.  Amongst the religious laiety it may be accepted fact.  You know, the people who don't actually study such things.

So, as usual, you know no such thing.

ETA:  Also, you appear to be equivocating on the meaning of "know".  I was quite clear the sense of the word I am using here (something akin to "justified true belief").  You haven't justified it, and the truth value of your claim is unknown and possibly unknowable.

What hubris.  You know what your bible has to say about pride, yes?

 I'm not acting with pride, I'm stating fact and you know it. I've not heard of physicists saying that something can generate itself from nothing and just saying they believe it doesn't justify anything, nor does it make it true.

GC

Still waiting on that evidence that god even exists to start the universe...

(July 19, 2017 at 11:03 am)Inkfeather132 Wrote:

(July 19, 2017 at 3:01 am)Godscreated Wrote:  We know that materials can not self generate from nothing, so you see I started with accepted evidence and went from there. Your example went from "don't understand to never to can't understand" and then a conclusion. There are other ideas but they are not generally promoted by science, and none of them have any reasoning as to where the original materials came from. You don't accept it but at least I have an explanation.

GC

Show me the scientific journal that provides evidence that materials cannot self generate please. And then get back on topic. Where is your evidence that god exists?

 I've told you I can not give you evidence for God you would accept, I've tried an it's been rejected. You want the evidence then you'll have to come to salvation through Jesus and then God will give you undeniable evidence. I was only communicating with Jesster in this thread until others jumped in and took this off course. I do not have to prove anything, the big bang is your claim not mine.

GC

(July 20, 2017 at 1:34 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(July 19, 2017 at 11:03 am)Inkfeather132 Wrote: Show me the scientific journal that provides evidence that materials cannot self generate please. And then get back on topic. Where is your evidence that god exists?

 I've told you I can not give you evidence for God you would accept, I've tried an it's been rejected. You want the evidence then you'll have to come to salvation through Jesus and then God will give you undeniable evidence. I was only communicating with Jesster in this thread until others jumped in and took this off course. I do not have to prove anything, the big bang is your claim not mine.

GC

Actually, the Big Bang is not my claim. I don't believe in it. I have no opinion on how the universe came into existence because I've done very little studying of the subject. Do you know god exists?