(August 3, 2017 at 10:36 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Well, now that Sicky Rikki has joined the party, we might have a much more cogent argument for/example of "religious" psychosis.

We've had that for months now. His mental illness is like an actual physical illness to us that just won't go away.

(August 1, 2017 at 12:20 pm)CeruleanNight Wrote:

• Believing in Deities is a Form of Psychosis

Depends how you define "deities" mate, and which religions you're talking about..
The bottom line is that Jesus said he was an alien sent to clue us in about a few things, so isn't it logical to want to listen to what an alien visitor has got to say?
How about it Spock?

"Affirmative, I'm all ears"..

(August 3, 2017 at 11:33 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Little Rik Wrote:The science you are talking about is called physical science for a reason.
It is physical MA not abstract.
Consciousness on the other hand is something abstract and therefore got to be understood by a science that is not physical.
You never heard of?
Well, you are not the only one MA.
That however is a different story.
Sooner or later you like everybody else will hear of.
There is all the eternity to find out.
Nothing is lost.  

Cannot your non-physical science produce independently verifiable results regarding the existence of unembodied spirits? If not, why call it science?

For instance, if I could send five graduate students to pay surprise visits to five of the holiest non-physical science practitioners available, and the practitioners could provide the same correct answer to a question for which only I know the answer and which can't be physically ascertained by anyone else, that would be evidence that they have access to information in a way that physical science can't yet duplicate. Even two out of five would be significant enough to warrant further investigation.

Without evidence of that caliber, all you're providing are unsupported assertions.

That is positively possible provided that these practitioners (forget the holiest) follow the path to the very top of human existence.
That type of knowledge however is not only achieved by those who practice yoga meditation or intuitional science.
Any body can achieve the knowledge that God is real and that everything is God.
As far as you avoid karma (actions and reactions) then your consciousness expand to the level that you realize who you are and how the whole system works.
As the cloud disappear under the strong sun also the knowledge appear as you stop creating more karma for yourself.
In this case you don't need to engage in intuitional science but this way is a lot harder than by practicing intuitional science.  

Supreme knowledge is already there.
We don't need to develop ourselves with any study.
All we need to make it ours is to remove the clouds that prevent us from see this supreme truth that is why is called intuitional.
We can not create what is already there.
Even physical science only discover what is already there in nature.

Got it now?  

---

(August 3, 2017 at 11:35 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Rik is the type of theist that uses "science" as a derogatory term when trying to disagree with it, but then as a term of prestige when trying to justify something with it.

Well, well ,well..........

Actually is the other way around.
Aren't atheists that think that the universe pop up as per magic and nobody run it?
That belief is the opposite of what science teach.
Since when science tell us that something come from nothing?

I guess you never thought about that Fat, did you?  

(August 3, 2017 at 12:31 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 3, 2017 at 11:11 am)Little Rik Wrote: [edit]
Consciousness on the other hand is something abstract and therefore got to be understood by a science that is not physical.
[edit]

Can my physical science alter your abstract consciousness?

The answer is yes. Therefore "consciousness" is at least partially explained and impacted by physical science.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.      

Can your computer alter you?
How can it?
A physical science that deal with matter is miles and miles below the human consciousness therefore can not  alter it.
All physical science can do is to understand how the brain works but to understand the consciousness is a total different story.

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(August 3, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(August 3, 2017 at 12:31 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Can my physical science alter your abstract consciousness? The answer is yes. Therefore "consciousness" is at least partially explained and impacted by physical science.

The mind/body problem largely concerns the relationship between quantitative effects that are subject to the scientific method and qualitative affects which generally aren't. I'm pretty sure this conversation won't go anywhere beyond bare assertions, since I don't believe either Rik or Astonished are well versed in the relevant literature.

You must be a serious fan and admirer of Thomas Nagel.

Both of you are deep intellectuals.
Unfortunately the intellect is not able to bring the hidden knowledge that lie in the consciousness above in the mind.
It is a big big waste of time.
All the intellect can do is to discover this finite universe.
Other than that little or nothing.

It remind me the poor donkey walking in circles wasting his energies and getting nowhere.

Quote:Astonished doesn't even know who Thomas Nagel is and is too stupid to understand why he matters.

The problem with Ast is not much whether he knows or not who Nagel is.
Ast problem is a lot deeper than that.
Maybe a psychologist can better understand which nut or nuts in his brain are faulty.  

Little Rik Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Cannot your non-physical science produce independently verifiable results regarding the existence of unembodied spirits? If not, why call it science?

For instance, if I could send five graduate students to pay surprise visits to five of the holiest non-physical science practitioners available, and the practitioners could provide the same correct answer to a question for which only I know the answer and which can't be physically ascertained by anyone else, that would be evidence that they have access to information in a way that physical science can't yet duplicate. Even two out of five would be significant enough to warrant further investigation.

Without evidence of that caliber, all you're providing are unsupported assertions.

That is positively possible provided that these practitioners (forget the holiest) follow the path to the very top of human existence.
That type of knowledge however is not only achieved by those who practice yoga meditation or intuitional science.

There you go, now you have a way to substantiate your assertions. Provide a list of people qualified to participate in the study and you're ready to make history!

(August 1, 2017 at 4:38 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yeah, well I think atheism is intellectually lazy, so there, Cerulean.

I know.  It's like we don't even try to put our intellect in the service of this delusion.  Laaaazzeeeee.

---

Oops, this has become a Rik thread? When did the contagion begin? I only read the first page before responding to Neo. I might do better to read the thread going forward until the petri dish becomes over run, rather from the end.

(August 4, 2017 at 10:26 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Little Rik Wrote:That is positively possible provided that these practitioners (forget the holiest) follow the path to the very top of human existence.
That type of knowledge however is not only achieved by those who practice yoga meditation or intuitional science.

There you go, now you have a way to substantiate your assertions. Provide a list of people qualified to participate in the study and you're ready to make history!

Easy MA.
Go in a place where people seriously practice intuitional science or the real yoga and see their same response about the real reality.
If I would tell you about such a places I would be accused of proselytism and I don't want to do that considering that I also practice the real yoga.
I just leave to you to sort out where these places are.  

Little Rik Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:There you go, now you have a way to substantiate your assertions. Provide a list of people qualified to participate in the study and you're ready to make history!

Easy MA.
Go in a place where people seriously practice intuitional science or the real yoga and see their same response about the real reality.
If I would tell you about such a places I would be accused of proselytism and I don't want to do that considering that I also practice the real yoga.
I just leave to you to sort out where these places are.  

Um, any group of people can have a consistent response on a position concerning reality (or imagination). Can they have a consistent and correct response to a question to which I know the answer, but which they should not be able to ascertain by physical means? Or any similarly miraculous knowledge that can be shown to be extraordinary yet verifiable?

(August 4, 2017 at 9:47 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(August 3, 2017 at 12:31 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Can my physical science alter your abstract consciousness?

The answer is yes. Therefore "consciousness" is at least partially explained and impacted by physical science.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.      

Can your computer alter you?
How can it?
A physical science that deal with matter is miles and miles below the human consciousness therefore can not  alter it.
All physical science can do is to understand how the brain works but to understand the consciousness is a total different story.

Nope, I'm right right right. Test it yourself. Go a week without water or food. Ingest a large amount of alcohol. Give yourself repeated concussions. Run your car in a closed garage. All physical (science) things that can effect consciousness and do have an explanation in physical science. 

Maybe you don't have the ability to grasp the complete meaning of consciousness.

(August 4, 2017 at 11:50 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 4, 2017 at 9:47 am)Little Rik Wrote: Wrong, wrong, wrong.      

Can your computer alter you?
How can it?
A physical science that deal with matter is miles and miles below the human consciousness therefore can not  alter it.
All physical science can do is to understand how the brain works but to understand the consciousness is a total different story.

Nope, I'm right right right. Test it yourself. Go a week without water or food. Ingest a large amount of alcohol. Give yourself repeated concussions. Run your car in a closed garage. All physical (science) things that can effect consciousness and do have an explanation in physical science. 

Maybe you don't have the ability to grasp the complete meaning of consciousness.

Rik, bonus points if you perform all of mh.brewer's suggested tests in the same week. That would be fun.

Seriously, though, Rik is impervious to these arguments because he seems to think of consciousness as some sort of psychic substratum, independent of the actual contents of conscious experience. It's bullshit, of course, but it's his get-out-of-thinking-free card whenever he is challenged to address the myriad and well known ways that consciousness is affected by physical change.

Have to cling to that dogma at all costs!