(September 26, 2017 at 4:58 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(September 26, 2017 at 4:27 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Since you're neither omniscient nor omnipotent, I find your speculation and assertions woefully uninformed.

Clever. However, Simon would need to show that it is plausibly actually possible for his objection to carry any weight. I don't think that is something he or you can do. Omnipotence does not mean the ability to do things that are not possible, especially not within the context of a overriding goal: free will.

Which objection would that be, Steve?

(September 26, 2017 at 4:56 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(September 26, 2017 at 2:04 pm)SteveII Wrote: Two points. 

1. I believe (with Biblical support) that if someone has not heard of Jesus Christ and been given a chance to respond, then he will judge them on the basis of their response to what was provided them.

Then, doesn't it seem unfair, to cultures that have never heard of Jesus, to send missionaries to tell them? Seems to me, they are better off not knowing, so they won't be judged on whether they believe or not.

The point is that your objection to God revealing himself so imperfectly is not all that strong. 

Quote:

Quote:2. It is entirely probable that even with infinite knowledge and power, it is simply not possible to create only people who would freely always choose good. So, given free will, the choices God had was to create no one or a world in which many would not freely choose good.

So then, don't create people at all. Just create the souls he wants to spend eternity with in the first place. Instead of creating a situation that assures, that some high percentage of your creation will not make it through the Soul Filtering device.

Is there free will in Heaven?

You mean souls without (or with limited) free will? That seems to have been done with the angelic beings. We are made in his image with the certain abilities because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. Even a high failure rate does not outweigh the reward to him and those that do respond. 

Why wouldn't there be free will in heaven? However, before you think that is an argument in your favor, you are comparing entirely different circumstances. We have a preexisting relationship with God, we have new bodies, we are in a new place, and we constantly in the presence of Christ--none of those things would apply to this life.

I thought this thread was about funk music!

(September 26, 2017 at 4:58 pm)SteveII Wrote: Clever. However, Simon would need to show that it is plausibly actually possible for his objection to carry any weight. I don't think that is something he or you can do. Omnipotence does not mean the ability to do things that are not possible, especially not within the context of a overriding goal: free will.

Omnipotence means exactly what it says on the tin, unlimited power. Can god make a rock so big he can't lift it? Of course he can, and he can lift that rock and throw it right into the next galaxy.
No, don't ask me, ask a priest. It was your church that gave god so many ridiculous attributes.

The Abrahamic God concept is a classic example of a paradox.

We know it can't exist as described, in this universe.
If he exists elsewhere, how the hell do theists find out about it? Did someone talk!

Dirty rotten scoundrels!

(September 26, 2017 at 9:38 pm)SteveII Wrote: ...Why wouldn't there be free will in heaven?...

Do we have free will to commit sin? In the unlikely event I find myself in heaven, sooner rather than later my eyes will wander and I'll be gazing at some woman's titties. Then what happens?

You there! Yes you! Succubus! I saw that!

Then god pulls a big lever and the trapdoor opens and I'm screaming all the way down. But wait, what about god's omniscience? He knew I'd do that long before he even created me, so there's no way he would allow me in heaven in the first place. It's all sooo confusing.
Now what about the rest of the sad bastards? According to the law of truly large numbers, all of them, no matter how saintly, will fuck up eventually and they'll get the big lever.
There's nobody in heaven, it's empty.

(September 27, 2017 at 3:03 am)Succubus Wrote:

(September 26, 2017 at 4:58 pm)SteveII Wrote: Clever. However, Simon would need to show that it is plausibly actually possible for his objection to carry any weight. I don't think that is something he or you can do. Omnipotence does not mean the ability to do things that are not possible, especially not within the context of a overriding goal: free will.

Omnipotence means exactly what it says on the tin, unlimited power. Can god make a rock so big he can't lift it? Of course he can, and he can lift that rock and throw it right into the next galaxy.
No, don't ask me, ask a priest. It was your church that gave god so many ridiculous attributes.

No, that is not what omnipotence means. Your comment is a great example of not actually understanding Christianity but certain that you do. 

Quote:The term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.[1]
   
   
2. A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
   
   
3. Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.[2]
   
   
4. A deity can bring about any state of affairs which is logically possible for anyone to bring about in that situation.
   
   
5. A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan.
   
   
6. Every action performed in the world is 'actually' being performed by the deity, either due to omni-immanence, or because all actions must be 'supported' or 'permitted' by the deity.
   

Under many philosophical definitions of the term "deity", senses 2, 3 and 4 can be shown to be equivalent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence#Meanings

(September 27, 2017 at 8:13 am)SteveII Wrote:

(September 27, 2017 at 3:03 am)Succubus Wrote: Omnipotence means exactly what it says on the tin, unlimited power. Can god make a rock so big he can't lift it? Of course he can, and he can lift that rock and throw it right into the next galaxy.
No, don't ask me, ask a priest. It was your church that gave god so many ridiculous attributes.

No, that is not what omnipotence means. Your comment is a great example of not actually understanding Christianity but certain that you do. 

Quote:The term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.[1]
   
   
2. A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
   
   
3. Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.[2]
   
   
4. A deity can bring about any state of affairs which is logically possible for anyone to bring about in that situation.
   
   
5. A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan.
   
   
6. Every action performed in the world is 'actually' being performed by the deity, either due to omni-immanence, or because all actions must be 'supported' or 'permitted' by the deity.
   

Under many philosophical definitions of the term "deity", senses 2, 3 and 4 can be shown to be equivalent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence#Meanings

Guess what?  Christianity doesn't get to define words for their own use.  And if you claim you KNOW the limits of god's omnipotence, you're making it up as you go along.  And "deity" has no application outside of religion, so don't try and claim that the dictionary proves god.

Part of a series on the attributes of God.
The first line of the wiki article: "Omnipotence is the quality of having unlimited power."

Reference #1 Saint Augustine: A theologian.

Reference #2 John Polkinghorn: A theologian.

Well they would say that wouldn't they?