(October 6, 2017 at 3:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 6, 2017 at 3:00 pm)emjay Wrote: Okay. With that correction in mind, I'm not sure I understand the question. Remorse for letting him down on top of the inherent remorse?... ie sorry to him as well as sorry to whoever I wronged?

Yes. 

I imagine decent people already feel remorse for those they have wronged. But when we believe in God we believe in apologizing to the person we have wronged as well as expressing remorse to God for violating His commandment to love others and treating one of "His children" badly. That's where I was going with that.

Take the commandment 'honour thy father and thy mother'... what if those parents are abusive, what then? The problem with the commandments in the Bible is that they are absolute and literally set in stone, if the story is to be believed, and as such they can never cover all cases nor can they ever evolve.

True remorse for something... that is compassion for the person you've wronged rather than self-serving remorse because you are being punished... can only come from understanding what you've done wrong, why it's wrong, and how it impacts the person you've wronged... ie it comes from empathy. If you are obliged to follow a set of arbitrary rules that don't make sense... in some cases at least (eg honouring an abusive parent)... then there can be no such true remorse; all it can be in that case is a self-serving remorse that comes out of fear of or actually being punished by God. So as I see it, there can never be anything but self-serving remorse involved in blindly following a set of absolute rules that you do not understand, and that do not make sense in all cases, and never can, by virtue of being absolute and set in stone.

So I guess what I'm saying here is that remorse doesn't seem the right term for the saying saying sorry to God part. Compassionate remorse only comes from empathy, and anything else is just self-serving.

(October 7, 2017 at 12:18 am)emjay Wrote:

(October 6, 2017 at 3:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes. 

I imagine decent people already feel remorse for those they have wronged. But when we believe in God we believe in apologizing to the person we have wronged as well as expressing remorse to God for violating His commandment to love others and treating one of "His children" badly. That's where I was going with that.

Take the commandment 'honour thy father and thy mother'... what if those parents are abusive, what then? The problem with the commandments in the Bible is that they are absolute and literally set in stone, if the story is to be believed, and as such they can never cover all cases nor can they ever evolve.

True remorse for something... that is compassion for the person you've wronged rather than self-serving remorse because you are being punished... can only come from understanding what you've done wrong, why it's wrong, and how it impacts the person you've wronged... ie it comes from empathy. If you are obliged to follow a set of arbitrary rules that don't make sense... in some cases at least (eg honouring an abusive parent)... then there can be no such true remorse; all it can be in that case is a self-serving remorse that comes out of fear of or actually being punished by God. So as I see it, there can never be anything but self-serving remorse involved in blindly following a set of absolute rules that you do not understand, and that do not make sense in all cases, and never can, by virtue of being absolute and set in stone.

So I guess what I'm saying here is that remorse doesn't seem the right term for the saying saying sorry to God part. Compassionate remorse only comes from empathy, and anything else is just self-serving.

Has Yahweh ever showed genuine empathy with humans? Is it even logically possible for someone who is so far removed from humanity in the ways described to even feel empathy?

(October 7, 2017 at 12:17 am)Astonished Wrote:

(October 6, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Hammy Wrote: And right now it's hilarious.

But "brah" is annoying

Why do you think I used it?

Because you're not as classy as me

Luckily astonished showed up to remind us that he's a jerk, otherwise we may have forgotten

(October 7, 2017 at 12:32 am)Astonished Wrote:

(October 7, 2017 at 12:18 am)emjay Wrote: Take the commandment 'honour thy father and thy mother'... what if those parents are abusive, what then? The problem with the commandments in the Bible is that they are absolute and literally set in stone, if the story is to be believed, and as such they can never cover all cases nor can they ever evolve.

True remorse for something... that is compassion for the person you've wronged rather than self-serving remorse because you are being punished... can only come from understanding what you've done wrong, why it's wrong, and how it impacts the person you've wronged... ie it comes from empathy. If you are obliged to follow a set of arbitrary rules that don't make sense... in some cases at least (eg honouring an abusive parent)... then there can be no such true remorse; all it can be in that case is a self-serving remorse that comes out of fear of or actually being punished by God. So as I see it, there can never be anything but self-serving remorse involved in blindly following a set of absolute rules that you do not understand, and that do not make sense in all cases, and never can, by virtue of being absolute and set in stone.

So I guess what I'm saying here is that remorse doesn't seem the right term for the saying saying sorry to God part. Compassionate remorse only comes from empathy, and anything else is just self-serving.

Has Yahweh ever showed genuine empathy with humans? Is it even logically possible for someone who is so far removed from humanity in the ways described to even feel empathy?

No... never... only a select few, and even then, not for long. All the Bible ever does, especially in the Old Testament, is generalise and stereotype ... both in its rules and its targets for wrath... 'the people of x' as if they're all the same. Such generalisations and stereotypes are the absolute antithesis of empathy; empathy is by it's nature about understanding individuals and individual situations rather than stereotypes.

(October 7, 2017 at 12:56 am)Losty Wrote: Luckily astonished showed up to remind us that he's a jerk, otherwise we may have forgotten

I swear he's only got increasingly obnoxious over the last few day/weeks. He wasn't always this bad.

I distinctly remember one post being particularly vile. Some thread he made. And since then he's just been this massive prick. Before then he seemed sort of okay.

Nothing different, I know he exists. So I'll assume this to mean everyone one else would find out I'm right, In that case, Huge BBQ party on me.

I can't even entertain that hypothetical.
In this universe, if you think this universe is real and all the physical laws and limitations in it, then god cannot exist at all as described. Remember, all woo is bullshit...

Except ouija boards! They're for realises! Hehe

(October 7, 2017 at 12:01 am)Astonished Wrote: Okay, subhuman scumfuck, you're going on ignore.

You are a clear testimony that atheists are not better than theists. You were raised in 4chan or something. Some of us get out before permanent brain damage like that.

Subhuman? You are the kind of person that thinks there exists that? What is subhuman to you, little boy?

I will put myself, an atheist in front of any theist from derpshits like yourself (barring their beliefs OFC). Your line of thought is as binary as any religious extremist.

So yeah, way to prove yourself a dimwitted arsehole.

(October 5, 2017 at 7:05 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: I would be forced to believe.

But here's the thing.  There are a lot of "ifs" in this scenario.

For instance, discovering that god is all good.  That would immediately mean that the character, as described in the OT, didn't exist.  At least not in the way he is described (jealous, spiteful, wrathful, etc). This immediately brings up the question on which is the true nature of the deity and, indeed, is the god before me the actual being from the OT?

Has he grown up/matured, into the being I've just met? Is the OT description completely wrong (making me question the veracity of the whole book).

If he was, indeed, misrepresented and has always been good, I guess I could support getting to know him better, though worship would be a long way off.

All of this.

And also, assuming the whole reveal of some sort of God, I honestly don't think I'd do anything differently.  
I mean, I already DO regret the times I act wrongly.
And I already DO try and live my life well, and be kind and compassionate and understanding, and help others.
I volunteer (not here in Germany, but in America), I volunteered a lot, at public schools, for Girl scouts, and my daughter and I went once a month to the local food bank to help them sort and stack donated food). I think about 10 hours a week average.  I usually don't brag about it or bring it up, but for the sake of this argument, I'm trying to make a point.
I try to forgive.  I even try to skip forgiveness and just accept and understand people, though I often fail.  
Knowing there was a "god" wouldn't make me any better at any of this.

It's such a bullshit myth that believing in god makes you a better person.  When I did believe, I was FAR more selfish than I am now, because I could comfort myself that things would balance out, in the end.  When I saw a hungry homeless person, I could rationalize that God would make it up to them in the after life, or maybe they were being punished for some wrongdoing in this life. Now, I know that all people really are equal, and some just get the shaft, and need real, tangible help.

The only possible difference I could see is that this being might desire my worship.  I suppose if he threatened me or my family with damnation if I did not comply, I would then be forced to comply.  But why would I worship this being, otherwise?  Only narcissists require worship in order to get on their good side.  If he were good, then me living a good life to the best of my ability would be enough.

---

(October 6, 2017 at 3:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(October 6, 2017 at 3:00 pm)emjay Wrote: Okay. With that correction in mind, I'm not sure I understand the question. Remorse for letting him down on top of the inherent remorse?... ie sorry to him as well as sorry to whoever I wronged?

Yes. 

I imagine decent people already feel remorse for those they have wronged. But when we believe in God we believe in apologizing to the person we have wronged as well as expressing remorse to God for violating His commandment to love others and treating one of "His children" badly. That's where I was going with that.

Ok, catching up on the rest of this thread, I don't understand this.  Looks like I'm not alone.

Sometimes remorse isn't even about a living being.  For instance, if I throw trash on the ground because I'm just feeling too lazy to take it home with me or go hunt for a garbage can, I would actually feel bad about that afterward.  I didn't hurt a specific individual, nor break any commandment in the bible, but I'd still feel bad, because it hurts the environment and society in general to be a thoughtless pig like that, so it would make me more aware, and next time, I'd hopefully feel that pang before I dropped my trash, and shove it in my pocket to take home and recycle it instead.
I may feel the need to make something up to the person or people or society I've harmed, but why would I need to feel remorse toward God?  I didn't hurt him.

And if you are going to say because our suffering causes him to suffer, then just no.  Look around.  The vast majority of human suffering (through all of history) is not caused by other humans.  Death of loved ones is probably one of the top causes, and that happens to everyone no matter if other humans cause it or not.  Malaria, ebola, even just the flu.  Have you ever vomited for 18 hours with hardly a break?  Hurricanes.  Earthquakes.  Arthritis.  Blindness, deafness, baldness.  Fucking Cancer.  Famine. Draught. Asthma.  Even minor allergies cause quite a lot of suffering, in total. All of this happens without any input from other humans.

So if our suffering causing him to suffer, he can do a lot more about it than we can!  My dropping trash on the ground, of even calling another kid in 6th grade a bitch when I was younger is less than a drop in the bucket.  The only person I need to make up to for calling a bitch, is the person I called a bitch and myself, so I don't do it again.  Not some supposed God who let that same person's twin sister die of fucking appendicitis.  Which really all happened, btw.