Those who read my thread on the Introduction section know that I'm struggling with my Christian faith. However, I'm not calling myself Atheist yet, even though there are days when I really want to, but try to hang in there for a bit longer.
 
Two scenarios that usually come to my mind when I think of regarding two issues, 1) The theory of Evolution, 2) Jesus existence and his followers in the first century.
 
The first, being the guy of "hypothetical situations" which I'm known to family and friends, I wonder if the theory of Evolution was ever "proven" wrong, even though so far barely any of that happened, but considering that science demands that any hypothesis be falsifiable, there is a small chance that the theory of Evolution may be turned upside down, but as I said, this is just a hypothetical situation. So, based on that, does it follow that the creation story in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is true? Would your atheism be "shaken" if such far stretching hypothetical situation ever became a reality? And why?
 
The second issue regarding Christ's existence.  I'm less enthusiastic to accept the claim that Jesus never existed. A good number of historians agree that he lived, also considering what I learned so far about history at university, we can't be 100% sure, after all, history is subjective. History is based on records from people who have their own agendas and biases, and it is a fact that they chose what or include and not include in their writings, it doesn't follow that something didn't happen or a person didn't exist just because some writings don't include such event or person. Also, there are chances that in the future we may find a good and reliable evidence for people that believed never to have existed. Therefore, it is safe not to be so "sure." What do you think of such argument?

Proving evolution false does not prove anything else is true. You need actual evidence to prove an assertion, not just the negation of another independent one. If evolution was proven false, why doesn't that prove the hindu creation stories, or the scientologist one, or the zoroastrian one? The theory of evolution and the christian creation myths are not the only two possibilities.

There very well might have been a guy named Jesus running around at that time, but that says nothing of the claims of his words, deeds, supernatural powers, and divinity. You're right, just because something isn't written down doesn't mean it didn't happen or didn't exist... but also, just because something IS written down by someone doesn't mean it actually happened, or happened at that time in that way.

Me, living a life of "what if"'s, I'm sure I'd be very confused and unhappy.

(October 12, 2017 at 8:55 am)RayOfLight Wrote: Those who read my thread on the Introduction section know that I'm struggling with my Christian faith. However, I'm not calling myself Atheist yet, even though there are days when I really want to, but try to hang in there for a bit longer.

Don't worry about calling yourself an atheist. That's just what believers will call you once you stop being one yourself. There is no doctrine to master in order to be let into our ranks, all you have to do is leave theirs.

(October 12, 2017 at 8:55 am)RayOfLight Wrote:  
Two scenarios that usually come to my mind when I think of regarding two issues, 1) The theory of Evolution, 2) Jesus existence and his followers in the first century.
 
The first, being the guy of "hypothetical situations" which I'm known to family and friends, I wonder if the theory of Evolution was ever "proven" wrong, even though so far barely any of that happened, but considering that science demands that any hypothesis be falsifiable, there is a small chance that the theory of Evolution may be turned upside down, but as I said, this is just a hypothetical situation. So, based on that, does it follow that the creation story in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is true? Would your atheism be "shaken" if such far stretching hypothetical situation ever became a reality? And why?

If you're deciding between evolution and creation then you're thinking about origins. Do you think it is a given that we should all know how we got to where we are today? I don't. It is fun to speculate and thanks to science we at least know how life forms change over time. But how life gets started? That isn't known in such detail as to make replication trivial.

Now we are free to claim life started with creation or the opposite. We can do so loudly and with bravado. That however won't make the matter any more certain. No one is entitled to know exactly how life got started here billions of years ago. But science offers the best hope of ever finding out.


 

(October 12, 2017 at 8:55 am)RayOfLight Wrote: The second issue regarding Christ's existence.  I'm less enthusiastic to accept the claim that Jesus never existed. A good number of historians agree that he lived, also considering what I learned so far about history at university, we can't be 100% sure, after all, history is subjective. History is based on records from people who have their own agendas and biases, and it is a fact that they chose what or include and not include in their writings, it doesn't follow that something didn't happen or a person didn't exist just because some writings don't include such event or person. Also, there are chances that in the future we may find a good and reliable evidence for people that believed never to have existed. Therefore, it is safe not to be so "sure." What do you think of such argument?

Does it matter if Jesus did or didn't exist? Do you assume that if he existed then he performed miracles and was a god? I wouldn't. I frankly don't care if there was someone by that name around whom the stories collected or if he was created completely by fiction. But I do know there is no good reason to think he was a god and did magic.

1) In science, it is not a requirement to come up with an alternate for something to be proven false. Also you seem a bit confused... evolution has nothing to do with any of the creation myths. It is the hypothesis of abiogenesis which actually threatens those stories.

2) Jesus, as described in the bible, has absolutely zero presence in any historical records till date. There might very well have been a historical Jesus, and it's not like that was a unique name back then either... Harry Potter the sorcerer isn't real just because there are actual people with that name.

Well - according to the Abrahamic religions, the earth is approximately 6000 years old. We have evidence to contradict this claim. Evidence in the form of archaeological findings - artifacts that go back hundreds of thousands of years. These artifacts have been carbon dated and prove that the earth is much, much older than 6000 years.

So, you can look at facts based on scientific and archaeological data, or you can keep looking in a book of literary works, which has supposedly been translated from copies of copies of copies of manuscripts for which there is no evidence even exists, and decide for yourself.

Regarding 1, evolution != the origin of life. Moreover, we see evolution happening. There are biologists here who can explain it better than I could ever hope to, but it's highly unlikely that evolution will be proven false. Moreover, even if it is, that doesn't automatically mean that creationism is correct. One of the greatest failings of our society is the establishment and reinforcement that things are binary. That there are only two choices to everything, and that if one is wrong, the other must be correct. It doesn't work that way.

Regarding 2, whether or not an actual Jesus lived is less important than the idea that this person performed miracles and that his sacrifice is the only path towards eternal salvation. There's nothing outside the Bible (which is the assertion that these things are true) that points to any of it being plausible, let alone fact. So, even if there was a prophet named Jesus who had a literal cult of personality rise up around him, that doesn't lend any veracity to the mystical aspects of the story.*

*We have a member here named SteveII who thinks that the fact that a church was formed and that people believed in the divinity of Jesus somehow lends credence to the idea that he was actually divine. Don't be that guy.

1.  If evolution were suddenly proven false that would still not provide one scintilla of evidence that the bible bullshit story is "true."

2.  Please don't give me the "all historians agree" horseshit.  They do not.  And when you ask what evidence is used to base their conclusion what you end up with is a regurgitation of the same old gospel shit which no real historian would ever consider historical evidence.

Change in allele frequency in a population over time is a fact.

Could no longer give a flying fuck about Jesus. His followers have convinced me it's not worth it.