(November 4, 2017 at 8:52 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 4, 2017 at 6:29 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm a conservative and don't believe one of those statements. Thanks for the blanket condemnation.

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See reply to Divinity.

There is no polite way to put it when it comes to today's GOP. They are not the party of Lincoln nor Teddy. They have been hijacked by the far right religious, and we have had 36 years of GOP controlling our economic narrative with Reagan's FAILED trickle down economics, which 45 and the GOP are STILL selling.

"Conserving" isn't about greed, or hording wealth. Conservation isn't about exploitation to simply make the top richer while the pay gap keeps exploding for everyone else. Conservation is about, or should I say, SHOULD BE about conserving social stability and natural resources. 

There is absolutely nothing conservative about today's GOP. I warn you that all they are going to do is lead us into another economic bubble that will burst just like the one Bush Jr had. 

None of what I said in this post is anti private sector. I don't want us to become Cuba nor do I want a nanny state for saying we cant keep doing what we are doing. 

But you and I are both atheists. This is a good posts for theists to read when they claim we all agree all the time, this is an example to show them we dont  always agree.

I do not agree with GOP economics, and I do not agree with our religious right or the bully they got elected.

Maybe some people need to take more consideration before applying labels.

(November 4, 2017 at 8:59 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(November 4, 2017 at 8:52 am)Brian37 Wrote: There is no polite way to put it when it comes to today's GOP. They are not the party of Lincoln nor Teddy. They have been hijacked by the far right religious, and we have had 36 years of GOP controlling our economic narrative with Reagan's FAILED trickle down economics, which 45 and the GOP are STILL selling.

"Conserving" isn't about greed, or hording wealth. Conservation isn't about exploitation to simply make the top richer while the pay gap keeps exploding for everyone else. Conservation is about, or should I say, SHOULD BE about conserving social stability and natural resources. 

There is absolutely nothing conservative about today's GOP. I warn you that all they are going to do is lead us into another economic bubble that will burst just like the one Bush Jr had. 

None of what I said in this post is anti private sector. I don't want us to become Cuba nor do I want a nanny state for saying we cant keep doing what we are doing. 

But you and I are both atheists. This is a good posts for theists to read when they claim we all agree all the time, this is an example to show them we dont  always agree.

I do not agree with GOP economics, and I do not agree with our religious right or the bully they got elected.

Maybe some people need to take more consideration before applying labels.

You called yourself a "conservative". Well? How do you want me to respond to that? Because if you support the GOP or even Libertarians, my response will not be, "OK" because it is NOT working. 

If you support LGBT but say, "less taxes, less government" again, all that would mean is that you are good on social issues, but that would not mean the other stuff is working on economics because it is not working.

The fact remains the GOP is horrible on economics and social issues. The fact remains the more we allow the top to do whatever it wants the bigger the pay gap will become. The more we let global corporations pollute the planet for mere profit the less stable the world will be.

Regulations are what made cars safer with things like seat belts and air bags, and those regulations created factories that created jobs. Big oil is an addiction, a dangerous addiction, and it is killing our planet. And we don't need to be on it forever, when we could be moving to clean energy. Staying on fossil fuels today is like still insisting on rotary phones in an age of cell phones.

I'm sorry, but the 1% at the top are not going to end up eating cat food if they pay more in taxes. And the top and the right do not own a monopoly on our society. 

Does it ever occur to you, that you CAN keep the private sector, and create jobs by doing the right thing, by investing in livable wages, investing in health care and education, by paying more in taxes the richer you are? 

I am not buying the economic right's claim that we cant compete globally unless our workers take less and work for the same slave wages that China's labor is clobbering us with. I think we can. But, there is a huge difference between cant, and dont want to. The rich can STILL make money, they can compete globally by doing the right thing. Just like we moved from lead in gas, just like we put seat belts and airbags in cars. 

Our global economy isn't there for the top to say, "let us do whatever we want". 

All I am seeing from economic conservatives right now is a race to become like China, a sweat shop authoritarian society. I don't think we have to become China to compete lowering our standards to theirs.

I think we need to get back to the post WW2 economy were labor mattered, where taxes where higher and investment in labor created our middle class, where education was cheaper and the pay gap was not as big. We cant keep gutting our social safety nets, like social security and medicare and keep expecting workers to foot the bill when Wall Street keeps making bad bets.

We were not a nanny state after WW2 were we? No, so there is no good reason to think we will become one because some say we should not be eroding worker stability.

(November 4, 2017 at 9:42 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 4, 2017 at 8:59 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Maybe some people need to take more consideration before applying labels.

You called yourself a "conservative". Well? How do you want me to respond to that? Because if you support the GOP or even Libertarians, my response will not be, "OK" because it is NOT working. 

If you support LGBT but say, "less taxes, less government" again, all that would mean is that you are good on social issues, but that would not mean the other stuff is working on economics because it is not working.

The fact remains the GOP is horrible on economics and social issues. The fact remains the more we allow the top to do whatever it wants the bigger the pay gap will become. The more we let global corporations pollute the planet for mere profit the less stable the world will be.

Regulations are what made cars safer with things like seat belts and air bags, and those regulations created factories that created jobs. Big oil is an addiction, a dangerous addiction, and it is killing our planet. And we don't need to be on it forever, when we could be moving to clean energy. Staying on fossil fuels today is like still insisting on rotary phones in an age of cell phones.

I'm sorry, but the 1% at the top are not going to end up eating cat food if they pay more in taxes. And the top and the right do not own a monopoly on our society. 

Does it ever occur to you, that you CAN keep the private sector, and create jobs by doing the right thing, by investing in livable wages, investing in health care and education, by paying more in taxes the richer you are? 

I am not buying the economic right's claim that we cant compete globally unless our workers take less and work for the same slave wages that China's labor is clobbering us with. I think we can. But, there is a huge difference between cant, and dont want to. The rich can STILL make money, they can compete globally by doing the right thing. Just like we moved from lead in gas, just like we put seat belts and airbags in cars. 

Our global economy isn't there for the top to say, "let us do whatever we want". 

All I am seeing from economic conservatives right now is a race to become like China, a sweat shop authoritarian society. I don't think we have to become China to compete lowering our standards to theirs.

I think we need to get back to the post WW2 economy were labor mattered, where taxes where higher and investment in labor created our middle class, where education was cheaper and the pay gap was not as big. We cant keep gutting our social safety nets, like social security and medicare and keep expecting workers to foot the bill when Wall Street keeps making bad bets.

We were not a nanny state after WW2 were we? No, so there is no good reason to think we will become one because some say we should not be eroding worker stability.

So, you are a conservative in part also. Good for you.

(November 4, 2017 at 6:29 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm a conservative and don't believe one of those statements. Thanks for the blanket condemnation.

If you vote Republican, then ostensibly you support people who support those policies.  If you don't vote Republican, i question if you're actually a conservative and not a moderate or libertarian.

(November 4, 2017 at 10:09 am)Divinity Wrote:

(November 4, 2017 at 6:29 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm a conservative and don't believe one of those statements. Thanks for the blanket condemnation.

If you vote Republican, then ostensibly you support people who support those policies.  If you don't vote Republican, i question if you're actually a conservative and not a moderate or libertarian.

I vote republican more on the local and state level for economic reasons. At the federal level I vote based on the individuals platform. I don't vote the party line.

And thanks for telling me what I am.

(November 4, 2017 at 6:29 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(November 3, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Divinity Wrote: Meanwhile, conservatives:

Conservatives: Black Lives don't matter
Conservative: Capitalism is the only good thing in the world, and there should be zero regulation because the rich and powerful are the only ones that matter
Conservative: Love of country is required
Conservative: America is the land of opportunity, and if you aren't rich you are just LAZY
Conservative: Free speech is great, unless you're saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.  Or want to open a mosque.  Or you know the President is a fucking idiot.
Conservative: We have absolutely nothing to learn from other nations, because America was at it's best in the 1920's when women and blacks couldn't vote and corporations could dick people over all they like without pesky unions

I'm a conservative and don't believe one of those statements. Thanks for the blanket condemnation.

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(November 3, 2017 at 4:26 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: We can play the simplistic straw man game too. 

Conservatives- Institutional and cultural racism doesn't exist  anymore and is not cause of minority  suffering . Minorities are lazy and culturally inferior and thus to blame for their struggles . And the majority white leadership of this country only had the best intentions for minorities. Now listen to my moaning about reverse racism and white persecution.   

Conservatives - Capitalism is god and rich people  are saints  who will always do what's in the public good. And thus should not be regulated or taxed  or they will extort the economy . 

Conservative -Forced rituals and veneration of objects and historical figures is required . And don't you dare question it or you hate the troops . 

Conservatives - Rich people did it all themselves without benefiting from a safe stable society . And if your not rich it's your fault 

Conservative - Free speech until you give Macbeth a modern twist . Call the bible a myth . Won't write Trump on a coffee cup . etc 

Conservatives - All other nations owe us gratitude for acting on our economic and military interests .And any criticism of America will be met with hostility . But were free to bash everyone else .

See reply to Divinity.

Mine was a parody of what Neo was doing as demonstrated in the first sentence 

Quote:We can play the simplistic straw man game too. 

(November 4, 2017 at 9:49 am)mh.brewer Wrote:

(November 4, 2017 at 9:42 am)Brian37 Wrote: You called yourself a "conservative". Well? How do you want me to respond to that? Because if you support the GOP or even Libertarians, my response will not be, "OK" because it is NOT working. 

If you support LGBT but say, "less taxes, less government" again, all that would mean is that you are good on social issues, but that would not mean the other stuff is working on economics because it is not working.

The fact remains the GOP is horrible on economics and social issues. The fact remains the more we allow the top to do whatever it wants the bigger the pay gap will become. The more we let global corporations pollute the planet for mere profit the less stable the world will be.

Regulations are what made cars safer with things like seat belts and air bags, and those regulations created factories that created jobs. Big oil is an addiction, a dangerous addiction, and it is killing our planet. And we don't need to be on it forever, when we could be moving to clean energy. Staying on fossil fuels today is like still insisting on rotary phones in an age of cell phones.

I'm sorry, but the 1% at the top are not going to end up eating cat food if they pay more in taxes. And the top and the right do not own a monopoly on our society. 

Does it ever occur to you, that you CAN keep the private sector, and create jobs by doing the right thing, by investing in livable wages, investing in health care and education, by paying more in taxes the richer you are? 

I am not buying the economic right's claim that we cant compete globally unless our workers take less and work for the same slave wages that China's labor is clobbering us with. I think we can. But, there is a huge difference between cant, and dont want to. The rich can STILL make money, they can compete globally by doing the right thing. Just like we moved from lead in gas, just like we put seat belts and airbags in cars. 

Our global economy isn't there for the top to say, "let us do whatever we want". 

All I am seeing from economic conservatives right now is a race to become like China, a sweat shop authoritarian society. I don't think we have to become China to compete lowering our standards to theirs.

I think we need to get back to the post WW2 economy were labor mattered, where taxes where higher and investment in labor created our middle class, where education was cheaper and the pay gap was not as big. We cant keep gutting our social safety nets, like social security and medicare and keep expecting workers to foot the bill when Wall Street keeps making bad bets.

We were not a nanny state after WW2 were we? No, so there is no good reason to think we will become one because some say we should not be eroding worker stability.

So, you are a conservative in part also. Good for you.

NO i AM NOT, I am not a republican, I don't like "f you I got mine" economics.

The GOP are "conservative" in the context of hording and protecting the rich. That is not conservation that is protecting exploitation for the mere sake of protecting the top and profits. NO, I am NOT a conservative. 

I think you are trying to re define the  word not me. 

The GOP stopped being the party of Lincoln back in the 60s and 70s and got hijacked by the rich and the religious right.

@brewer
What are the differences, as you see them, between state and local republican candidates and their federal counterparts?

Same question to any local/state dem voters who go independent at the federal level.

(November 4, 2017 at 10:09 am)Divinity Wrote:

(November 4, 2017 at 6:29 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm a conservative and don't believe one of those statements. Thanks for the blanket condemnation.

If you vote Republican, then ostensibly you support people who support those policies.  If you don't vote Republican, i question if you're actually a conservative and not a moderate or libertarian.

Libertarians are simply republicans without the social baggage, but willing to extend poverty wages to LGBT and pot smokers, but economically speaking they are just as bad if not worse. They still have "f you I got mine" as far as economics. 

I like Penn on social issues, but no, I hate his libertarian economics. It still does not do society good to have our pay gap explode and have more and more, even in the middle class not be able to make ends meet.

(November 4, 2017 at 8:41 am)Cyberman Wrote:

(November 4, 2017 at 4:30 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Can you say that if you came to England and went "I've come from the best country in the world AMERICA" in a café, that you wont end up with spit in your tea.

Yeah... 'spit'...

(See also Winner's Sauce; "I can't believe it's nut butter" etc)

And if they like mayo on their kebabs I make a fantastic substitute!

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(November 4, 2017 at 8:41 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Just because it is my personal opinion that the US is the best country doesn't mean I think it's perfect, that it can't be improved, that there aren't qualities in other countries we can learn from, etc.

IMO Norway is clearly the best country. Wish I could speak Norwegian and afford to move there.