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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 2:49 pm
(This post was last modified: November 4, 2017 at 2:52 pm by RoadRunner79.)
(November 4, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Cod Wrote: 1.) Cod is now going to ask you specifically; Do you agree that over millions of years, evolution is responsible for changes in characteristics of biological populations.
2. ) Why do I believe you should you believe that? Because evolution is a fact and a theory.
1.) I think my answer would depend on the type of change that you are talking about.
2.) That type of begging the question, and the arguing from popularity in the OP.... don't really help your position from my perspective.
(November 4, 2017 at 2:11 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (November 4, 2017 at 1:31 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Here, allow me to make a suggestion..and follow it up with a question. It seems to me that you don't doubt evolutionary biology, or even speciation. You just think that some, or most of it (though not all, I doubt you believe that god is painting the individual plumage patterns on every single bird) is attributable to artificial selection. Would that be accurate?
If it is, might your position on the matter be more thoroughly and competently argued by referring to that artificial selection, and how you can distinguish it from natural selection...than by arguing against the theory that explains how both work?
(hey, also, if you're the kind that believes in kinds...what are the chances you might handle that list I posted?)
@RR
This is what I mean by 'your position'. (you said it better than I was going to, Khem, so thank you.)
Telling me all the little things that bug you about the theory of evolution is not stating a position on the subject of diversity of life on earth. So, care to take another crack at it?
Sorry, I was referring to what was said. I didn't realize you where trying to change the subject. Did my questions make you uncomfortable?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 3:05 pm
........................................................... 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 3:10 pm
(November 4, 2017 at 2:13 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (November 4, 2017 at 2:08 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Well, I don't have too much issue with the topic of natural selection. Other than I think that some have a somewhat idealized vision of it, where every slight advantage is selected and magnified. The reality of it is more complicated; but that is a discussion concerning population genetics and a little off topic. It would seem that your use of the phrase artificial selection would be more in relation to means by which novel functions or systems come about and whatever is being proposed under an evolutionary standpoint. Sure. So, how about it? Do you think those novel functions or systems arose through a process of artificial selection? If so, why do you think that...if not, how do you think they arose?
Quote:If someone is asking me, if I believe in evolution; I'm going to ask two questions in return. What specifically, are you asking me to agree to; and, why do you think I should believe that?
No, I'm just asking you the questions up above, there's no need to qualify questions with questions until the end of days...lol.
Quote:As to your question, I do believe in many of the tenets of intelligent design, and I also believe that there are natural processes at work.
Artificial selection, a more accurate and specific term for "intelligent design" -is- a natural process. There's no reason to make a distinction. I get that you believe a supernatural agent performed said selection, but that doesn't change the selection itself. If a god existed, and if a god selected for specific structures or even forms..then evolutionary biology explains the mechanics by which it was done. That part we can see in the fossil record, in living representatives, and in the genetics that link it all together. That part doesn't change regardless of who or what dunnit.
Artificial as in artifice. As in artifact. Not as in "non natural" or "fake". Sometimes I wonder if that's a stumbling block. Thoughts?
Is one of those tenets of ID that you believe in "kinds", can I get a kind classification? I've always wondered exactly what IDers and creationists mean by kinds. Bonus if, in that classification, you indicate which organisms you think arose through artificial selection and which arose through natural selection.
Sorry, I do not have a lot of time to get into your other questions and a long side trail right now. At the moment I was just posting some quick questions about what was being discussed, if you would like to stick to them.
To clarify though, what I meant by natural processes was more akin to referring to natural causes as a reason for a death; as opposed to murder or an intentional death. Not really referring to a supernatural necessity.
As to "kinds" I don't really hear that too much from an I.D. perspective. Maybe in some reference to genus and adding new information vs modification of existing.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 3:24 pm
(This post was last modified: November 4, 2017 at 3:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
See, that's the sort of info that helps alot. If, when a person who believes in kinds says "one kind never turns into another kind" they mean genus; that dogs don't give birth to cats...then, no, ofc they don't, and evolutionary biology strongly predicts that they never will.
So why do they feel that this is an objection to evolutionary biology?
However, if they feel that members within a genus are "the same kind" and those kinds beget more of their kind... why do they object to being classified as relatives and descendants of earlier members of the genus?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 3:25 pm
(November 4, 2017 at 3:24 pm)Khemikal Wrote: See, that's the sort of info that helps alot. If, when a person who believes in kinds says "one kind never turns into another kind" they mean genus; that dogs don't give birth to cats...then, no, ofc they don't, and evolutionary biology strongly predicts that they never will.
So why do they feel that this is an objection to evolutionary biology?
Someone told it was a gotcha.
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 3:50 pm
Whomever told them that was either ignorant or fucking with them...and, not to put too fine a point on it, set -them- up to be "gotcha'd".
OFC, they may not mean genus after all, upon reflection...which is why a biblical classification of kinds would be so helpful.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 4:08 pm
(November 4, 2017 at 3:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Whomever told them that was either ignorant or fucking with them...and, not to put too fine a point on it, set -them- up to be "gotcha'd".
OFC, they may not mean genus after all, upon reflection...which is why a biblical classification of kinds would be so helpful.
It's not really that hard. King James had the bible translated and they chose "kinds" as the English word at that point. There is no deeper meaning that this.
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 4:09 pm
(This post was last modified: November 4, 2017 at 4:15 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Easy for you or I to say, but not for a believer using it to object to evolutionary biology. It has to mean something specific, it has to meaningful contradict evolutionary biology,....and it has to be true.
I don't think that any description of what a believer thinks it means is capable of satisfying those three criteria.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 4:12 pm
(November 4, 2017 at 3:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Whomever told them that was either ignorant or fucking with them...and, not to put too fine a point on it, set -them- up to be "gotcha'd".
OFC, they may not mean genus after all, upon reflection...which is why a biblical classification of kinds would be so helpful. It means whatever is convenient at the time
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
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RE: For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.
November 4, 2017 at 4:13 pm
(November 4, 2017 at 4:12 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: (November 4, 2017 at 3:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Whomever told them that was either ignorant or fucking with them...and, not to put too fine a point on it, set -them- up to be "gotcha'd".
OFC, they may not mean genus after all, upon reflection...which is why a biblical classification of kinds would be so helpful. It means whatever is convenient at the time
Yep. A best we'd get a non-scientific explanation of the term, which wouldn't advance the discussion at all.
Remember, it's all a myth anyway.
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