(November 5, 2017 at 3:50 am)Odoital77 Wrote: If there is no God, then there is no moral accountability for our actions.

Except to each other, which broadly speaking is what we see. So the onus is on you to establish the other side of your "if".

(November 5, 2017 at 8:08 am)Little lunch Wrote: My jaw is still dropped from what Little Rik posted.
Why can't you be nice like that all the time?

You just remind me about the magpies that I got in my garden.

When they got the new babies they feed them until these new born are capable of feeding themselves.
After that the parents kick them away even if the new born scream like hell for more feeding.




I do the same.
Anyone in real need I look after properly but anyone who play up talking rubbish will be shown the hard way out in the cold.
Sorry LL but as the old saying goes..........To be “cruel to be kind......

(November 5, 2017 at 3:50 am)Odoital77 Wrote: A stretch?  Not at all.  If there is no God, then there is no moral accountability for our actions. 

Moral accountability exists (or doesn't) independently of any god.

Quote:The actions of every person feeding the homeless or caring for an orphaned child would ultimately end up the same as those of the child molester and murderer. 

You think so? In one case homeless people are fed and orphans are cared for...... and in the other people are murdered or molested.  It doesn't sound like the same end is being effected at all.

Quote:Nothing is truly punished, nothing rewarded, and nothing redeemed in the absence of God.

Really?  So what are all of our courts and social rewards/punishments doing, then?  They seem to be doing the things that you say aren't being truly done.

Quote:So no, not a stretch at all. As far as your other comment regarding “super ultra mega ultimate meaning”, all I can say is that all of the meaning that can be had is only had via the existence of God.

If all you have is mere god meaning, then you don't have any super ultra mega ultimate meaning, so it's all meaningless. Cutting to the chase, the claim that apart from god there is no meaning is as ridiculous as claiming that unless you had Coke Zero you didn't have a soda.

(November 5, 2017 at 9:23 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 5, 2017 at 3:50 am)Odoital77 Wrote: A stretch?  Not at all.  If there is no God, then there is no moral accountability for our actions. 

Moral accountability exists (or doesn't) independently of any god.

Quote:The actions of every person feeding the homeless or caring for an orphaned child would ultimately end up the same as those of the child molester and murderer. 

You think so? In one case homeless people are fed and orphans are cared for...... and in the other people are murdered or molested.  It doesn't sound like the same end is being effected at all.

Quote:Nothing is truly punished, nothing rewarded, and nothing redeemed in the absence of God.

Really?  So what are all of our courts and social rewards/punishments doing, then?  They seem to be doing the things that you say aren't being truly done.

Quote:So no, not a stretch at all. As far as your other comment regarding “super ultra mega ultimate meaning”, all I can say is that all of the meaning that can be had is only had via the existence of God.

If all you have is mere god meaning, then you don't have any super ultra mega ultimate meaning, so it's all meaningless.  Cutting to the chase, the claim that apart from god there is no meaning is as ridiculous as claiming that unless you had Coke Zero you didn't have a soda.

And that (bolded) just became my new signature.

(November 5, 2017 at 3:50 am)Odoital77 Wrote:

Quote:Odoital77 Wrote: No, as I said earlier.  "On atheism there is no grounds for having hope.  You simply have the life you appear to have now, and when it is over...you are over.  Nothing that you say, do, or feel has any ultimate meaning or significance. 
 
Khemikal Wrote: No god meaning, therefore no meaning?  A bit of a stretch, don't you think?  Besides, if all you have is ultimate meaning, then you don;t have any super ultra mega ultimate meaning.

A stretch?  Not at all.  If there is no God, then there is no moral accountability for our actions.  The actions of every person feeding the homeless or caring for an orphaned child would ultimately end up the same as those of the child molester and murderer.  Nothing is truly punished, nothing rewarded, and nothing redeemed in the absence of God. So no, not a stretch at all. As far as your other comment regarding “super ultra mega ultimate meaning”, all I can say is that all of the meaning that can be had is only had via the existence of God.

Bull. You really think that the only thing stopping you from engaging in a rape and murder spree is god? If god was proven to not exists right now, you would immediately run to your neighbours house and commit hideous acts? god is the only thing holding you back?
If true, your head is messed up.

(November 5, 2017 at 10:21 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(November 5, 2017 at 3:50 am)Odoital77 Wrote: A stretch?  Not at all.  If there is no God, then there is no moral accountability for our actions.  The actions of every person feeding the homeless or caring for an orphaned child would ultimately end up the same as those of the child molester and murderer.  Nothing is truly punished, nothing rewarded, and nothing redeemed in the absence of God. So no, not a stretch at all. As far as your other comment regarding “super ultra mega ultimate meaning”, all I can say is that all of the meaning that can be had is only had via the existence of God.

Bull. You really think that the only thing stopping you from engaging in a rape and murder spree is god? If god was proven to not exists right now, you would immediately run to your neighbours house and commit hideous acts? god is the only thing holding you back?
If true, your head is messed up.

Many Christians seem to think this.  Most will at least claim that they get their morals from God or the bible.
The fact that this is demonstrably not true, since people without religion and with different religions hold similar morals based on their society not their religion, is just one of the many things they put their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalala" if you mention.

He might fear it, but we all know that if he did lose his faith, he'd be fine. He might have a bit of an existential crisis, but he wouldn't fundamentally change.  I think it's a pretty common fear among theists, though.  They are taught this (brainwashed with this belief) after all.

Sorry for being a bitch at you earlier.  I got a bit over defensive of the OP. :p

(November 5, 2017 at 9:38 am)Whateverist Wrote: And that (bolded) just became my new signature.

I stole the basic framework from you, so it seems fitting.  

Well if he just up and leaves at the first sign of push back when he's not established a rep in an environment that has lots of trolls pestering it, that is manipulative and immature regardless of whether it comes from depression or religion or just general ass-hattery.

People are self-absorbed for lots of reasons, religion being just one of them.

I learned a valuable lesson in this regard when I was in the middle of divorcing my first wife. She had mental health issues and I felt sorry for her. My attorney was recommending I play hardball on a particular matter and I was conflicted about it, so sought a second opinion. I'll never forget what the other attorney told me: "Look, you know old people who are crochety and cranky and mean and nasty, and they get away with it because they're old. You also know old people who are kind and generous and approachable and humble. Your wife is mentally ill, sure ... but she's also being an asshole. You have to keep the two separate. Being mentally ill is no more an excuse to be an asshole than being old is an excuse to be an asshole."

I hung up the phone, and just sat there for like half an hour absorbing this advice. It's some of the best advice I've ever gotten. As a bonus, it also has helped me not to become too irascible in my old age ;-)

(November 5, 2017 at 10:30 am)Aroura Wrote:

(November 5, 2017 at 10:21 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Bull. You really think that the only thing stopping you from engaging in a rape and murder spree is god? If god was proven to not exists right now, you would immediately run to your neighbours house and commit hideous acts? god is the only thing holding you back?
If true, your head is messed up.

Many Christians seem to think this.  Most will at least claim that they get their morals from God or the bible.
The fact that this is demonstrably not true, since people without religion and with different religions hold similar morals based on their society not their religion, is just one of the many things they put their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalala" if you mention.

He might fear it, but we all know that if he did lose his faith, he'd be fine. He might have a bit of an existential crisis, but he wouldn't fundamentally change.  I think it's a pretty common fear among theists, though.  They are taught this (brainwashed with this belief) after all.

Sorry for being a bitch at you earlier.  I got a bit over defensive of the OP. :p

Don't worry about it. I tend to be a bit cynical about those kind of posts. Too often I have seen the faithful play that kind of wolf in sheep's clothing game, commonly referred to as lying for jesus. There are certain common features to that dishonest tactic and the OP ticks a lot of those boxes. For example, the "atheists have nothing to live for" meme. If anyone genuinely feels that they have no reason to go on living, then there is some other underlying issue. It has exactly nothing to do with theism or atheism directly. 

Take Andrea Yates, for example. I can guarantee you that NO mainstream faith mandates the killing of one's own children to fast track them into heaven. As it turns out, Yates' actions had nothing at all to do with christianity, she had a huge history of mental illness.

Returning to our OP, let's, arguendo, assume that it is a genuine post. In that case the OP has at the very least some form of depression going on. But a forum such as this is not equipped or qualified to dispense either diagnoses or cures. The phrase "Seek professional help" is often deployed as a pseudo-clever rhetorical device to the point where it is rendered meaningless. Nevertheless, occasionally it is the best advice which may be honestly given. 

If the feelings expressed in the OP are genuine, then I would say that I am not a medical professional of any type, so start with a visit to your GP and get referred onwards to whatever is the appropriate path for you. Atheism is not your issue at all. (generic "you" above). This forum (or any other) can be a support, a place to vent and other such things. One thing it cannot do is act as a surrogate medical professional.

(November 5, 2017 at 3:50 am)Odoital77 Wrote: Not at all.  If there is no God, then there is no moral accountability for our actions.  The actions of every person feeding the homeless or caring for an orphaned child would ultimately end up the same as those of the child molester and murderer.  Nothing is truly punished, nothing rewarded, and nothing redeemed in the absence of God. So no, not a stretch at all. As far as your other comment regarding “super ultra mega ultimate meaning”, all I can say is that all of the meaning that can be had is only had via the existence of God.

If you had a moral compass, I'd say it was broken. But, from the above, it's obvious you have none.