(November 9, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Hey, way to make it personal.  No one singled you out.  She is just looking hypothetically at what the fallout of religious indoctrination appears to be.

I am characterising the phenomenon of organised religion.

This is different to saying that theists are by nature immature, but religious indoctrination is counter-productive to the maturation process of becoming a fully independent adult.

(November 9, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote: The question I'd like to interest Mathilda in is this: why is religious indoctrination the way of the world?  What survival value favored human groups which passed along such beliefs to their offspring and how might religious practices have influenced the sort of mammal we've become, what we call our humanity?

I believe it is a symptom of how our brains work. Brains generally seek the easiest solution when presented with some need. Whether that's to maintain homoeostasis, or to achieve something that ultimately achieves this. We see this as progress in society as everything becomes more efficient and redundancy is eliminated.

But sometimes this can lead to taking a short cut that comes at a greater cost by hacking our own brains. Take stress for example. You can change your life-style to reduce stress and do some meditation, or you can pour yourself a whisky or consume cannabis. The former is the better method in the long run but takes more effort. Some people take narcotic drugs when their life is painful and / or tedious and this can form an addiction when the better method my be to seek counselling and face up to whatever trauma is affecting you. I fully agree that religion is the opiate of the masses, almost quite literally because a good church service can lead to the release of endorphins, opioids, seratonin etc and can lead to many of the same highs that are triggered by drugs. Religious attendance is essentially brain hacking. Outsourcing your moral decision-making process to reduce doubt and uncertainty is a similar shortcut to drinking a dram of whisky to reduce stress. But it's more similar to a drug addiction that affects that rest of society because organised religion always seeks to ensure your continued attendance through a conditioned fear of hell while at the same time using their believers to expand its power base by spreading ignorance.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. It just a matter of who picks up the bill.

(November 9, 2017 at 10:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 8:47 pm)Hammy Wrote: It doesn't apply to true generalizations, remember?

---

He didn't infer that. He said he would hope that that wasn't what you meant. In truth he very reasonably left all options open for you but you chose to pick the one that made him look the most unfavorable.

---

I agree. Thankfully the OP is claiming that theism is childish, not that theists are childish.

I don't think you're a childish person, for example, I think your belief in God is a childish belief, but there's a lot more about you as a person than your theism. You are clearly a mature adult.

The thread title is calling theism childish, but the entire post itself is full of assertions and generalizations about theist people themselves.

I am curious to hear why this doesn't break the recent rule against provocation and rash generalization. Im not complaining or anything, and I'm not going to reported it. Just curious.

Well, it is speculative and doesn't give any citations.  Funny how I didn't notice at first because it is logical even if built up on generalizations as you say.  Sounds like you were provoked.  I can see why but I suppose many of us think something like this, and I imagine it feels as condescending as do most apologists.  

Somehow things like this need to come up in order for people to realize their stereotype is hurtful and less universally applicable than one assumes.  A challenge for that rule I think.

Though I do think religion can have an infantilizing effect on believers, I don't think all succumb to it.  People are pretty resilient and we all rise to many challenges.

---

(November 10, 2017 at 7:09 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Hey, way to make it personal.  No one singled you out.  She is just looking hypothetically at what the fallout of religious indoctrination appears to be.

I am characterising the phenomenon of organised religion.

This is different to saying that theists are by nature immature, but religious indoctrination is counter-productive to the maturation process of becoming a fully independent adult.

(November 9, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote: The question I'd like to interest Mathilda in is this: why is religious indoctrination the way of the world?  What survival value favored human groups which passed along such beliefs to their offspring and how might religious practices have influenced the sort of mammal we've become, what we call our humanity?

I believe it is a symptom of how our brains work. Brains generally seek the easiest solution when presented with some need. Whether that's to maintain homoeostasis, or to achieve something that ultimately achieves this. We see this as progress in society as everything becomes more efficient and redundancy is eliminated.

But sometimes this can lead to taking a short cut that comes at a greater cost by hacking our own brains. Take stress for example. You can change your life-style to reduce stress and do some meditation, or you can pour yourself a whisky or consume cannabis. The former is the better method in the long run but takes more effort. Some people take narcotic drugs when their life is painful and / or tedious and this can form an addiction when the better method my be to seek counselling and face up to whatever trauma is affecting you. I fully agree that religion is the opiate of the masses, almost quite literally because a good church service can lead to the release of endorphins, opioids, seratonin etc and can lead to many of the same highs that are triggered by drugs. Religious attendance is essentially brain hacking. Outsourcing your moral decision-making process to reduce doubt and uncertainty is a similar shortcut to drinking a dram of whisky to reduce stress. But it's more similar to a drug addiction that affects that rest of society because organised religion always seeks to ensure your continued attendance through a conditioned fear of hell while at the same time using their believers to expand its power base by spreading ignorance.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. It just a matter of who picks up the bill.

Thank you for this. I completely agree about singling out organized religion for being an easy way out. Prior to organized religion, there was direct religious experience. But the way of the shaman was often painful and risky, though also cathartic. In some primitive cultures the shaman would undergo the risks and everyone else would apparently derive some benefit, leastwise the institution seems to have been respected - though I can't tell you where I picked up that impression exactly.

Maybe direct religious experience puts us in touch with something more primal, more grounded in our mammalian nature than our hypothetically inclined rational mind? In the end, just as people found they could make do with vicariously witnessing one individual in the band undergoing the experience, perhaps organized religion is an attempt to synthesize that experience into an even safer, more convenient form? I don't think it is potent enough to satisfy us and there are other ways to get there as you intimate with drugs, alcohol, dance, art, risk taking, etc.

(November 9, 2017 at 10:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 8:47 pm)Hammy Wrote: It doesn't apply to true generalizations, remember?

---

He didn't infer that. He said he would hope that that wasn't what you meant. In truth he very reasonably left all options open for you but you chose to pick the one that made him look the most unfavorable.

---

I agree. Thankfully the OP is claiming that theism is childish, not that theists are childish.

I don't think you're a childish person, for example, I think your belief in God is a childish belief, but there's a lot more about you as a person than your theism. You are clearly a mature adult.

The thread title is calling theism childish, but the entire post itself is full of assertions and generalizations about theist people themselves.

I am curious to hear why this doesn't break the recent rule against provocation and rash generalization. Im not complaining or anything, and I'm not going to reported it. Just curious.

CL, if you had a loved one or friend who was 50 years old, and day after day kept on repeating that Apollo was real, you might like and love them, but to us, it is no different than if you were 50 and literally believed Frosty The Snowman was real.

Yes we do find religion childish. It is a relic of antiquity. It is gap filling. Why is it so hard for you to accept your finite existence? Why do you think you even need your god when you rightfully reject those of all others? You live fine without belief in Apollo, or Vishnu, Thor and Zeus and Allah.

Most humans get sold their religions as kids long before they can critically think about what their parents sell them.There is no polite way to say, "That was then, this is now".

I do find it childish to fear change. I do find it childish to cling to the claims of antiquity, which in reality we don't completely do. If we clung to the old ways, we would still be stuck a very oppressive age, where women and minorities would be treated worse. it took humans questioning social norms to break free from the bad claims of antiquity.

Nothing horrible will happen to you, or anyone of any religion if they stop clinging to old claims. I see the same fear in adults that I had as a kid fearing the shadows on the night time wall. I outgrew that fear, and humans can and have overcome their fear of being finite. 

Yes, we do find it childish knowing the planet is 4 billion years old, in a universe full of an estimated 2 trillion galaxies, in a 13.8 billion years old. 

CL bluntness and blasphemy are not a crime. And we are not singling out Christianity either. I'd say the same thing to a Muslim and Jew too. "That was then this is now".

I think humans are perfectly capable of doing good and being good without clinging to old mythology. I see lots of good in you too, I simply don't think you need claims of magic babies and men magically surviving rigor mortis. I see lots of good in Atlass33, but no, I do not think he needs Allah either. 

I see the claims of antiquity as childish. Humans created those things as gap filling back then as a way to form social structures and sure, lots of great artwork and monuments too. Lots of pretty stories you can find in all of them, but just like the Ancient Egyptians, still did not make the gods real. Evolution and the planet and the universe have been around far longer than our species. I do not see any cosmic string puller in all this. 

And again, I have every right to comment on this because I grew up a believer. I can still like and love those around me who still believe. My mom went her entire life a Catholic, but she was never afraid of my position and still loved me too. 

I don't like lying to people about my position. We get that you like what you believe, many of us used to be where you are still at. We are simply saying maybe you got it wrong. We are not going to have you arrested, we wont outlaw your religion or any for that matter. But don't expect anyone here to sugar coat our positions.

Seriously, try thinking about why you reject all other claims besides your own position. Maybe you will see what we see. We are really not trying to hurt you but help you. But please CL, like Atlass have been here for years. I think you know we are not out to get you, but challenging your logic. 

Just like I love and miss my late mother. Just because I deeply love her does not mean I think she got everything right.

(November 10, 2017 at 7:41 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 10:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The thread title is calling theism childish, but the entire post itself is full of assertions and generalizations about theist people themselves.

I am curious to hear why this doesn't break the recent rule against provocation and rash generalization. Im not complaining or anything, and I'm not going to reported it. Just curious.

CL, if you had a loved one or friend who was 50 years old, and day after day kept on repeating that Apollo was real, you might like and love them, but to us, it is no different than if you were 50 and literally believed Frosty The Snowman was real.

Yes we do find religion childish. It is a relic of antiquity. It is gap filling. Why is it so hard for you to accept your finite existence? Why do you think you even need your god when you rightfully reject those of all others? You live fine without belief in Apollo, or Vishnu, Thor and Zeus and Allah.

Most humans get sold their religions as kids long before they can critically think about what their parents sell them.There is no polite way to say, "That was then, this is now".

I do find it childish to fear change. I do find it childish to cling to the claims of antiquity, which in reality we don't completely do. If we clung to the old ways, we would still be stuck a very oppressive age, where women and minorities would be treated worse. it took humans questioning social norms to break free from the bad claims of antiquity.

Nothing horrible will happen to you, or anyone of any religion if they stop clinging to old claims. I see the same fear in adults that I had as a kid fearing the shadows on the night time wall. I outgrew that fear, and humans can and have overcome their fear of being finite. 

Yes, we do find it childish knowing the planet is 4 billion years old, in a universe full of an estimated 2 trillion galaxies, in a 13.8 billion years old. 

CL bluntness and blasphemy are not a crime. And we are not singling out Christianity either. I'd say the same thing to a Muslim and Jew too. "That was then this is now".

I think humans are perfectly capable of doing good and being good without clinging to old mythology. I see lots of good in you too, I simply don't think you need claims of magic babies and men magically surviving rigor mortis. I see lots of good in Atlass33, but no, I do not think he needs Allah either. 

I see the claims of antiquity as childish. Humans created those things as gap filling back then as a way to form social structures and sure, lots of great artwork and monuments too. Lots of pretty stories you can find in all of them, but just like the Ancient Egyptians, still did not make the gods real. Evolution and the planet and the universe have been around far longer than our species. I do not see any cosmic string puller in all this. 

And again, I have every right to comment on this because I grew up a believer. I can still like and love those around me who still believe. My mom went her entire life a Catholic, but she was never afraid of my position and still loved me too. 

I don't like lying to people about my position. We get that you like what you believe, many of us used to be where you are still at. We are simply saying maybe you got it wrong. We are not going to have you arrested, we wont outlaw your religion or any for that matter. But don't expect anyone here to sugar coat our positions.

Seriously, try thinking about why you reject all other claims besides your own position. Maybe you will see what we see. We are really not trying to hurt you but help you. But please CL, like Atlass have been here for years. I think you know we are not out to get you, but challenging your logic. 

Just like I love and miss my late mother. Just because I deeply love her does not mean I think she got everything right.

  Careful Neo, someone is gunning for your pompous ass title.

(November 10, 2017 at 7:45 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 10, 2017 at 7:41 am)Brian37 Wrote: CL, if you had a loved one or friend who was 50 years old, and day after day kept on repeating that Apollo was real, you might like and love them, but to us, it is no different than if you were 50 and literally believed Frosty The Snowman was real.

Yes we do find religion childish. It is a relic of antiquity. It is gap filling. Why is it so hard for you to accept your finite existence? Why do you think you even need your god when you rightfully reject those of all others? You live fine without belief in Apollo, or Vishnu, Thor and Zeus and Allah.

Most humans get sold their religions as kids long before they can critically think about what their parents sell them.There is no polite way to say, "That was then, this is now".

I do find it childish to fear change. I do find it childish to cling to the claims of antiquity, which in reality we don't completely do. If we clung to the old ways, we would still be stuck a very oppressive age, where women and minorities would be treated worse. it took humans questioning social norms to break free from the bad claims of antiquity.

Nothing horrible will happen to you, or anyone of any religion if they stop clinging to old claims. I see the same fear in adults that I had as a kid fearing the shadows on the night time wall. I outgrew that fear, and humans can and have overcome their fear of being finite. 

Yes, we do find it childish knowing the planet is 4 billion years old, in a universe full of an estimated 2 trillion galaxies, in a 13.8 billion years old. 

CL bluntness and blasphemy are not a crime. And we are not singling out Christianity either. I'd say the same thing to a Muslim and Jew too. "That was then this is now".

I think humans are perfectly capable of doing good and being good without clinging to old mythology. I see lots of good in you too, I simply don't think you need claims of magic babies and men magically surviving rigor mortis. I see lots of good in Atlass33, but no, I do not think he needs Allah either. 

I see the claims of antiquity as childish. Humans created those things as gap filling back then as a way to form social structures and sure, lots of great artwork and monuments too. Lots of pretty stories you can find in all of them, but just like the Ancient Egyptians, still did not make the gods real. Evolution and the planet and the universe have been around far longer than our species. I do not see any cosmic string puller in all this. 

And again, I have every right to comment on this because I grew up a believer. I can still like and love those around me who still believe. My mom went her entire life a Catholic, but she was never afraid of my position and still loved me too. 

I don't like lying to people about my position. We get that you like what you believe, many of us used to be where you are still at. We are simply saying maybe you got it wrong. We are not going to have you arrested, we wont outlaw your religion or any for that matter. But don't expect anyone here to sugar coat our positions.

Seriously, try thinking about why you reject all other claims besides your own position. Maybe you will see what we see. We are really not trying to hurt you but help you. But please CL, like Atlass have been here for years. I think you know we are not out to get you, but challenging your logic. 

Just like I love and miss my late mother. Just because I deeply love her does not mean I think she got everything right.

  Careful Neo, someone is gunning for your pompous ass title.

How is honesty being "pompuous"?

Did we have as a species back then, modern knowledge of science? 

Do you think the beliefs back then were good? Like the belief that kings and ruling families were good? Do you think belief that women/girls were to be bartered between families like property are a good thing? Do you think condemning others because they don't belong to your tribe is a good thing?

I don't think saying "that was then this is now" is pompous. 

So Hawking saying "A God is not required" must make him pompous too. 

I do not have to refrain from criticism of ANY religions.  I think humanity is much better off because of countless humans in the past questioning social norms. I don't think it s pompous that humans now reject religiously justified sexism. I don't think it is pompous that religiously based bigotry is challenged. I don't think it is pompous that LGBT and their supporters refused to accept the religious claims that were used to harm them for so long.

Is it "pompous" to state the fact that humans didn't exist 4 billion years ago? We didn't, and I wont refrain from stating the fact that in 5 billion years humans wont exist either. 

I get it makes humans uncomfortable to think about these things. But that does not make me "pompous". 

"Pompous" to me is thinking "all this" was put here for one species and one club to has dominion over all other clubs. THAT to be is pompous. And yes childish on a planet of 7 billion.

(November 9, 2017 at 8:20 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: I'll help you both;  When you see a topic that makes you feel uncomfortable because it asks questions you've refused to ever ask yourself that isn't provocation, It's discussion.

If you see a thread and the beginning line is something like "I think we can all agree Christians are all just morons" that is, in fact, provocation.

I hope this has been informative and I return you to your regularly scheduled martyrdom.

The OP was not intended to be insulting but I knew that many people would find it so. But it is something that I truly feel the more I think about religion and see just how fantastical and out of touch with reality it is. And I do think that it needs to be said. It's a case of the Emperor's new clothes. No one wants to make everyone embarrassed but after a while it gets too frustrating not to call out the horse shit for what it is. I did not mention the subject of an imaginary friend but I am glad that people did bring it up.

My thoughts first turned along these lines when I saw this picture



It's not odd to think of children praying to an imaginary friend, but then you see the parents holding hands and praying and then the grandparents and my thoughts are, just grow up. Do they really think that their thought waves are emanating out of their heads like a wi-fi signal to be sent to a god who is reading each message? Or when I see a picture of my brother on Facebook laying hands on someone to faith heal them as if he has magical powers. Does he really think that he is channeling some magical power that can sense what is wrong and rearrange the atoms in the receiving body according to some unknown template? Answer: yes. And I've seen him become more and more immersed in the fantasy over the years since he converted.

I do get why people are insulted though. They'll know that they don't act childishly and they'll miss my point about religious indoctrination arresting personal development. To explain what I mean, compare how children solve problems. Something is bad so ban it. This is binary thinking and the religiously inclined do tend to suffer from binary religious thinking. But then you tell the child about why we can't ban the use of something like oil, because we need it to power our cars and produce plastic and they're at a loss and expect the adult to give them the answer. Much like the religiously indoctrinated want the answers given to them in a book or sermon without question.

Now compare this thinking to how people grow more aware about all the different issues the more worldly they become, how they can feel able to give more leeway to someone who they recognise as behaving badly because they are deeply troubled for example. In the same way, you never feel more clever or enlightened as you learn more about the world because it seems obvious once things are pointed out to you. instead, you just start to wonder why other people don't see it as well. Organised religion deliberately slows down this process.

Being childish isn't a problem. I suspect that we maintain the desire to play as adults so we play with our children and help them learn and to expand their mental capabilities. I've started playing Dungeons & Dragons myself and am having a real good time doing it. But the difference is that I don't think D&D is real. No matter how hard I try I know that I will never be able to summon up a magic missile in real life. Yet I have in the past read many occult books from people who think that they do practise magic, or out of body experiences. Praying and attempts at faith healing are exactly the same thing. It's giving yourself the illusion of control over your environment rather than actually facing up to the real world.

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 10, 2017 at 7:45 am)Whateverist Wrote:   Careful Neo, someone is gunning for your pompous ass title.

How is honesty being "pompous"?

Only when the honesty reveals a smugness about ones own position combined with ridicule of other positions.

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: Did we have as a species back then, modern knowledge of science?

Nope, of course not.  Access to scientific knowledge is a great thing, but it isn't everything.  Take ABBA for example.  No science and yet ...
 

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: Do you think the beliefs back then were good? Like the belief that kings and ruling families were good? Do you think belief that women/girls were to be bartered between families like property are a good thing? Do you think condemning others because they don't belong to your tribe is a good thing?

The deficiencies of the past don't rule out the possibility that trade offs have been made which include losses as well as gains.

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: I don't think saying "that was then this is now" is pompous. 

You're cute when you're being pompous.  You remind me of someone ..

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: So Hawking saying "A God is not required" must make him pompous too.

Not really.  It is nicely understated.

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: I do not have to refrain from criticism of ANY religions.  I think humanity is much better off because of countless humans in the past questioning social norms. I don't think it s pompous that humans now reject religiously justified sexism. I don't think it is pompous that religiously based bigotry is challenged. I don't think it is pompous that LGBT and their supporters refused to accept the religious claims that were used to harm them for so long.

Of course not.  Pomposity is in the manner it is delivered, not the substance of what is said.

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: Is it "pompous" to state the fact that humans didn't exist 4 billion years ago? We didn't, and I wont refrain from stating the fact that in 5 billion years humans wont exist either.

No, that is almost completely irrelevant.  Why'd you bring that up?

 

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: I get it makes humans uncomfortable to think about these things. But that does not make me "pompous".

Just a bit too strident and self righteous.  Other than that not pompous at all. 

(November 10, 2017 at 8:12 am)Brian37 Wrote: "Pompous" to me is thinking "all this" was put here for one species and one club to has dominion over all other clubs. THAT to be is pompous. And yes childish on a planet of 7 billion.

Oh yeah, some of those apologist dudes (okay, most of them) ball out in pomposity.  But you totally have game yourself so no reason to hang your head.

(November 10, 2017 at 8:17 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 8:20 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: I'll help you both;  When you see a topic that makes you feel uncomfortable because it asks questions you've refused to ever ask yourself that isn't provocation, It's discussion.

If you see a thread and the beginning line is something like "I think we can all agree Christians are all just morons" that is, in fact, provocation.

I hope this has been informative and I return you to your regularly scheduled martyrdom.

The OP was not intended to be insulting but I knew that many people would find it so. But it is something that I truly feel the more I think about religion and see just how fantastical and out of touch with reality it is. And I do think that it needs to be said. It's a case of the Emperor's new clothes. No one wants to make everyone embarrassed but after a while it gets too frustrating not to call out the horse shit for what it is. I did not mention the subject of an imaginary friend but I am glad that people did bring it up.

My thoughts first turned along these lines when I saw this picture

---

---

It's not odd to think of children praying to an imaginary friend, but then you see the parents holding hands and praying and then the grandparents and my thoughts are, just grow up. Do they really think that their thought waves are emanating out of their heads like a wi-fi signal to be sent to a god who is reading each message? Or when I see a picture of my brother on Facebook laying hands on someone to faith heal them as if he has magical powers. Does he really think that he is channeling some magical power that can sense what is wrong and rearrange the atoms in the receiving body according to some unknown template? Answer: yes. And I've seen him become more and more immersed in the fantasy over the years since he converted.

I do get why people are insulted though. They'll know that they don't act childishly and they'll miss my point about religious indoctrination arresting personal development. To explain what I mean, compare how children solve problems. Something is bad so ban it. This is binary thinking and the religiously inclined do tend to suffer from binary religious thinking. But then you tell the child about why we can't ban the use of something like oil, because we need it to power our cars and produce plastic and they're at a loss and expect the adult to give them the answer. Much like the religiously indoctrinated want the answers given to them in a book or sermon without question.

Now compare this thinking to how people grow more aware about all the different issues the more worldly they become, how they can feel able to give more leeway to someone who they recognise as behaving badly because they are deeply troubled for example. In the same way, you never feel more clever or enlightened as you learn more about the world because it seems obvious once things are pointed out to you. instead, you just start to wonder why other people don't see it as well. Organised religion deliberately slows down this process.

Being childish isn't a problem. I suspect that we maintain the desire to play as adults so we play with our children and help them learn and to expand their mental capabilities. I've started playing Dungeons & Dragons myself and am having a real good time doing it. But the difference is that I don't think D&D is real. No matter how hard I try I know that i will never be able to summon up a magic missile in real life. Yet I have in the past read many occult books from people who think that they do practise magic, or out of body experiences. Praying and attempts at faith healing is exactly the same thing. It's giving yourself the illusion of control over your environment rather than actually facing up to the real world.

^^^^^^^^SO MUCH THIS.

I think even well intended liberal atheists, miss this point. I am a liberal. I do defend pluralism from a legal government standpoint. I am very pleased to see our current elections in many locations reject the far right bigotry that 45 has pandered to.

But as much as I do love my well intended left, even then, just like with my own mother, it does not mean everything you might claim is true because you like the idea of it.

In her book "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, she described being a kid, watching I think it was her grandmother praying and looking around not seeing any real person being talked to. Ayaan also grew up in religion, and really did try in her life to believe it. But her constant skepticism was a seed that never left her. And I think what she did for girls/women in the middle east by criticizing Islam's treatment of females is good for women's rights. Just like Susan B Anthony challenged Christian men when they used th bible to justify trying to prevent women from voting.


And @Whateverist

I am not special to anyone but those who know me, and to myself. But in cosmic time I am not. I am 1 of 7 billion humans. I was not special 4 billion years ago, and I wont be remembered 5 billion years from now. I would hardly call accepting that "pompous".

(November 9, 2017 at 6:11 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: So, you're trying to somehow turn actual mental illness

And other things like bad relationships and divorce, alcohol and drug abuse, porn and masturbation instead of real relationships, etc.

Also, I don't subscribe to the notion that mental illness is always random. I've suffered from depression, and it was likely caused by poor life choices I made.

Quote:into a tu quoque towards people who are insulting towards your religion?

Into a counter example to someone who says that religion stunts mental growth.

@Whatevs
Nevil Drury has a great intro to his book Shamanism, he starts it off by mentioning that it would be fantasy to transpose the world of the shaman onto our contemporary world and lives.   It's endemic to small groups, to societies with room for the individualist.  The more people there are, the less shamanism matters.  It falls apart when too many people report their own disparate experiences of the spirit world, and it's -that- experience...of what we could only assume to be charlatans, that means shamanism will never again seem authentic.  It started out, as far as we can tell..as a way to communicate with lost members of the group.  By the time it's about charms and rituals and divine manifestations...a tradition passed on from one shaman to the next, it's already well on it's way to being an organized religion.  The next shaman in line expects to see what the last shaman told him he would.  They're not intrepid explorers heading out into the unknown otherlands in search of Uncle Ogs spirit advice anymore.  

At the nexus between high shamanism and low religion..they serve the same purpose.  Through the shaman or the priest and the rites either engage in, we all get a shared experience just from watching them.  Not much different than going to the movies with your parents or a pretty girl..or your whole community.  Fundamentally, the only difference between shamanism and organized religion...is how many people are watching.

Now, consider what we think about people who drink alone or dance with themselves? We share art, art that isn't shared is just a doodle. Risk taking is most fulfilling when we engage in it as a group. The primal urge that all of these things seeks out, from low shamanisms search for the lost member of the tribe to organised religions ritual, to base hedonism at parties and whitewater rafting......to secular humanism....is a connection to each other. We're getting closer to our primal needs, recognizing them more fully and removing what obstacles and tedium we've placed between that and ourselves. LOL...fucking -facebook- might be the purest expression of that primal urge, of the most potent force on earth. Human beings acting and experiencing and sharing together. At least until we somehow manage to become telepathic..removing the final barrier between us in the last false images of self we construct and project.