(November 13, 2017 at 1:26 pm)Mathilda Wrote: I see that Alpha is in full on denial mode now and deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

It's obvious that you're just using the "concept of plausibility" to dress up an argument from personal incredulity.

(November 13, 2017 at 1:43 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 1:26 pm)Mathilda Wrote: I see that Alpha is in full on denial mode now and deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

It's obvious that you're just using the "concept of plausibility" to dress up an argument from personal incredulity.

Yea, said the one who defends a book written by scientifically ignorant humans, took over 1,000 years and 40 authors to write with books left out. 

You got us, donkeys and snakes talk, God was on Maury yesterday and proved he was the father of the baby. God is going to back that up too and go on Jerry Springer and confront Joseph too.

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(November 13, 2017 at 9:11 am)alpha male Wrote:

(November 12, 2017 at 11:58 pm)emjay Wrote: Maybe it is but it is nonetheless how I feel. I do not have a burning desire to fill every gap, and do not lose any sleep over not knowing the answer to certain questions, only the questions that are important to me.

The issue is that, regarding a theist with a similar position, you say they have all the hallmarks of delusion.

Quote:As to Occam's Razor... yeah, but then it's just turtles all the way down isn't it? If there was always something rather than nothing, which I believe is possible, then there is no need to 'multiply entities needlessly' by adding a God,

On what evidence do you believe that an eternally existing universe is possible?

Quote:Once in a million, billion, or gazillion still shows possibility; statistically rare but materialistically possible will always trump magic for me.

You have no evidence that it's materially possible. Just the opposite.

Quote:Anyway you clearly know more about this than I do, so I at least read a bit of the wiki on abiogenesis; it's more than I knew (specifically at least... maybe I knew it in the back of my mind from long ago) that amino acids had already produced in experiments designed to replicate the supposed early conditions of earth. So here's me been waiting for something like that to happen... and it already has... sixty odd years ago but then I've always been a bit behind the times

You're still behind. Science no longer thinks that the Urey-Miller experiment replicated early conditions on earth.

But even if it had, it produced a few amino acids. Every day, millions of creatures die. They don't have a few amino acids, they have all the materials necessary for life. But, abiogenesis has never been observed on any of these. You could say that's because they get eaten. But, isolate them, and still - no life. Put them in a pool of water with whatever chemicals you lie and add heat to simulate the sun - still no life. Add electricity to simulate lightning - still, no life.

For you, time appears to be magic.

Quote:So the current state of research is presumably what you're talking about? ie the move from organic molecules to living cells? From what I gather, there are many competing theories, so despite your millions of negative results, if that's what you were referring to, it looks like a hot field with a lot of potential...

May competing theories means that not one of them has solid evidence. Why do you assign potential to such a situation?

Quote:and as far as I'm concerned... if amino acids have already been produced that way, there's every reason to be confident that the rest is just a matter of time.

Oh wow, you even confirmed the point. Time = magic.

Frankly alpha, I'm sick and tired of this argument. Take that as you will, as I already said, was entirely your prerogative, but I have no intention of arguing from now until Christmas with someone hellbent on equivocating at every turn; if you really, truly, see magic (ie supernatural... unexplainable, unaddressable, and unfalsifiable by science) as equally plausible, if not more, than physical evidence then there's nothing more I can say; the gap between our thinking is just too wide to ever be breached.

So let's leave this where we started; you can think I'm deluded or a hypocrite, or whatever else you think... and that's entirely your prerogative. But that does not change the fact that I believe you, and other theists like you, are deluded in your beliefs... and as such, to the extent that you recommend descent into the same delusion as a means to find god, all I can say is 'no thanks'... that has literally no rational appeal to me as it is a self-fulfilling prophesy and I will not willfully walk into one.

(November 9, 2017 at 10:31 am)alpha male Wrote: If the atheists on this site are what you consider mature adults, I'll take being a child, thanks.

It's no wonder you have so many friends.

(November 13, 2017 at 12:58 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Adding to what Neo said about the bible... There are thousands of different denominations of Christianity across the world, but with the exception of small frindge groups, their differences are mostly small nuances. The fundamental Christian principles themselves are almost universally the same, despite the claim that interpretation of scripture is supposedly extremely subjective, and that the bible, in its entirety, doesn't provide an overall testimony. It very much does.

There have been wars fought over these 'nuances' ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian_...Christians


You think believing in a 6,000 to 10,000 year old earth and an earth billions of years old in which humans have been around for the tiniest part of that history a small nuance ?  One deals with actual original sin, the other uses it as a allegory.

Or That some Christians believe that we don't have free will is a small nuance?, almost all the arguments  on here where god's love is called to question relies on free will, while other Christians dispose of the idea all together.  Then you get full  preterism that denies Jesus will return, and that the resurrection will be physical, on a physical earth. Or pre-tribulationist perhaps who have very different views on the second coming.

Even then you are still limiting it to the thousands of religions that use the bible as their source that you call Christian, what about those that still believe in Jesus and use the bible but generally would not be called Christians by the mainstream. ?

And that's just believers !!  Bring in non believers who have no obligation to believe the bible at all and it becomes not subjective, but downright unbelievable.

And yet they one and all believe that we should love the Lord above all things and our neighbor as oneself. Funny, how that works.

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(November 13, 2017 at 1:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I've never met or ever even heard of a Christian denomination who doesn't believe in free will, but the fact that they may exist doesn't negate my point.

Pretty much all Calvinists, including Presbyterians.

(November 9, 2017 at 2:42 pm)alpha male Wrote: Or more commonly threads regarding depression and other mental illness have historically had a lot of participants.

I'm 100% positive that having a mental illness does not mean that you have a "miserable personal life." I have exactly the personal life I want. Sure, I'd love to have fewer panic attacks, but that doesn't affect my personal life.

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(November 9, 2017 at 3:30 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 3:15 pm)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote: Thanks for your clarification, and please excuse my incorrect inference.  Is it reasonable to say that it is ultimately up to the particular individual to determine whether he or she has a miserable or happy personal life? Just as I easily misunderstood your post, perhaps the misery that some people are experiencing  is just the normal baggage that comes with being human, and overall, they have their source of happiness, fulfillment, and meaning that drives them to live and be productive in their own way.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that someone with depression isn't happy...

You're going to fall off that limb. Depression doesn't make someone permanently unhappy.

(November 13, 2017 at 1:47 pm)emjay Wrote: Frankly alpha, I'm sick and tired of this argument. Take that as you will, as I already said, was entirely your prerogative, but I have no intention of arguing from now until Christmas with someone hellbent on equivocating at every turn; if you really, truly, see magic (ie supernatural... unexplainable, unaddressable, and unfalsifiable by science) as equally plausible, if not more, than physical evidence then there's nothing more I can say; the gap between our thinking is just too wide to ever be breached.

That's bullshit, as in this area you don't have evidence. As noted, the evidence is stacked against you.

Quote:So let's leave this where we started; you can think I'm deluded or a hypocrite, or whatever else you think...

Hypocrite. As I said, I don't see either side as deluded. And I don't try to get around it by saying that certain people aren't deluded, but show all the symptoms or whatever of delusion. That was cheap.

Quote:and that's entirely your prerogative. But that does not change the fact that I believe you, and other theists like you, are deluded in your beliefs...

Well at least now you're being honest.

Quote:and as such, to the extent that you recommend descent into the same delusion as a means to find god, all I can say is 'no thanks'... that has literally no rational appeal to me as it is a self-fulfilling prophesy and I will not willfully walk into one.

I'm not recommending it. Do whatever you like. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

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(November 13, 2017 at 1:49 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 10:31 am)alpha male Wrote: If the atheists on this site are what you consider mature adults, I'll take being a child, thanks.

It's no wonder you have so many friends.

Why would you think I'm here to make friends? 

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(November 13, 2017 at 1:55 pm)Shell B Wrote: I'm 100% positive that having a mental illness does not mean that you have a "miserable personal life." I have exactly the personal life I want. Sure, I'd love to have fewer panic attacks, but that doesn't affect my personal life.

In such threads, the people are generally discussing means of curing or at least coping. Maybe next time you can pop in to tell them that their apparent sufffering isn't suffering at all.

Quote:You're going to fall off that limb. Depression doesn't make someone permanently unhappy.

Pretty much makes them unhappy by definition while they have it, don'tcha think?

(November 9, 2017 at 5:01 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 8:43 am)Mathilda Wrote: Growing up and maturing isn't just a physical development, but a mental one as well. The child learns to ask questions, not to believe everything they are told, to make their own decisions and moral judgments and to take responsibility for their actions. They slowly become more independent by being safely exposed to a world of danger until they can look after themselves.

Sorry, but people with mental illness apparently didn't follow this model. So, applying it only to theists is bullshit.

I mean, seriously, fuck you. I'd go with thoughtful discussion, but you're so far down the rabbit hole, it's pointless, so fuck you.

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Quote:Why would you think I'm here to make friends? 

I don't think that. I think you're probably a Poe and definitely a cunt.

Quote:In such threads, the people are generally discussing means of curing or at least coping. Maybe next time you can pop in to tell them that their apparent sufffering isn't suffering at all.

You shouldn't smoke crack for breakfast. These people are talking about coping with a facet of their health, not the entirety of their personal lives.

Quote:Pretty much makes them unhappy by definition while they have it, don'tcha think?

No. Depression doesn't make a person unhappy by definition. Meet people, make friends or just read. You can learn more about the things of which you are ignorant, you know.

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(November 13, 2017 at 1:58 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 1:47 pm)emjay Wrote: Frankly alpha, I'm sick and tired of this argument. Take that as you will, as I already said, was entirely your prerogative, but I have no intention of arguing from now until Christmas with someone hellbent on equivocating at every turn; if you really, truly, see magic (ie supernatural... unexplainable, unaddressable, and unfalsifiable by science) as equally plausible, if not more, than physical evidence then there's nothing more I can say; the gap between our thinking is just too wide to ever be breached.

That's bullshit, as in this area you don't have evidence. As noted, the evidence is stacked against you.

Quote:So let's leave this where we started; you can think I'm deluded or a hypocrite, or whatever else you think...

Hypocrite. As I said, I don't see either side as deluded. And I don't try to get around it by saying that certain people aren't deluded, but show all the symptoms or whatever of delusion. That was cheap.

Quote:and that's entirely your prerogative. But that does not change the fact that I believe you, and other theists like you, are deluded in your beliefs...

Well at least now you're being honest.

Quote:and as such, to the extent that you recommend descent into the same delusion as a means to find god, all I can say is 'no thanks'... that has literally no rational appeal to me as it is a self-fulfilling prophesy and I will not willfully walk into one.

I'm not recommending it. Do whatever you like. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

As I said, think what you want, but I'm done here.  

(November 13, 2017 at 1:55 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 2:42 pm)alpha male Wrote: Or more commonly threads regarding depression and other mental illness have historically had a lot of participants.

I'm 100% positive that having a mental illness does not mean that you have a "miserable personal life." I have exactly the personal life I want. Sure, I'd love to have fewer panic attacks, but that doesn't affect my personal life.

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(November 9, 2017 at 3:30 pm)alpha male Wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that someone with depression isn't happy...

You're going to fall off that limb. Depression doesn't make someone permanently unhappy.

Recovery could actually be fun and make you appreciate all sorts of things people take for granted at a much higher level.  If we are cursed with curses, it is only to come out with higher blessings when we persevere and resolve ourselves.

I may have the jack of all curses but I have jack of all blessings as well and blessings that only came as a result of the curses I had to endure and still enduring.

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Thank you ShellB for sticking up for the mentally ill.