(November 13, 2017 at 2:39 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 8:43 am)Mathilda Wrote: Religious belief conditions people to literally think and act like children.

I wasn't going to comment on such nonsense, but it seems people think a good point is being made here and some sort of sound reasoning was employed.

Quote:As a child your parents look after your needs, explain how the world works, make decisions about your future and take responsibility for those decisions.

Growing up and maturing isn't just a physical development, but a mental one as well. The child learns to ask questions, not to believe everything they are told, to make their own decisions and moral judgments and to take responsibility for their actions. They slowly become more independent by being safely exposed to a world of danger until they can look after themselves.

Religious conditioning from birth essentially stops the maturation process. [1] Children are taught that the consequence to their actions are irrelevant because only a non-existent god ca truly judge them [1.1]. They are not taught to think through the morality of their actions but to accept the morality without question that some person wearing a pointy hat gives them.  They are conditioned to obey authority and to have faith rather than to ask why. [1.2] This means that they do not have to accept the responsibility of their actions because they were only following orders, which ultimately came from their god and are not to be questioned. [1.3] The child grows up dependent upon a system that tells them how to act, think, believe and what to value or hate. [1.4] Their life is not their own but is instead owned by a church that can control them like some bot in a network to be deployed to exercise power. [1.5] 

1. Ah...your conclusion which you will attempt to support with premises.
1.1 - This sentence makes no sense. The second half does not follow from the first. God's judgement would be a significant consequence and very relevant. However, you made up what children are taught to make your point (classic definition of a strawman argument). See 1.2
1.2 - Who teaches their 2 year old to share or not not to hit because the Bible says so? Who teaches an 8 year old not to cheat on their test because the Church says so? Who teaches a 13 year old not to drink and do drugs because Jesus says so? Your assertion has no basis in reality because 99% of childhood moral guidelines are exactly the same as a non-religious family. Do you imagine that religious parent somehow become incapable to teaching morality without answering "because the 10 commandments forbid it and we don't ask questions"? You are erecting a strawman.
1.3 - Here is where your reasoning goes off the rails. Where in the Bible does it even suggest that we are not responsible for our actions? In fact, personal responsibility is on nearly every page of the Bible. You conclude that following a written moral code leads to not being personally responsible. Your support for this seems to be that morality must be reasoned to rather than be instructed on. That is false and is not how morality is taught to children. 
1.4 - You have simply described every experience of every child ever. 
1.5 - Again, you make things up to support your silly conclusion. Show us where the Bible teaches anything other than personal responsibility. 

Not only does your conclusion NOT follow from the premises, your premises are ALL wrong!!

Quote:Not all theists are conditioned from birth. These are the ones to be pitied because they were not properly raised to begin with. The converts though do not deserve pity so much as contempt because they have essentially outsourced their morality. [2.1] They realise how difficult it is to make moral judgments because life is never black and white but always grey. So they're essentially letting someone else make those moral judgments for them instead. [2.2] Instead of taking responsibility for their actions, instead of suffering the doubt that is necessary to navigate a noisy and uncertain world, they're preferring to feel good about their own lives regardless of what it costs everyone else. [2.3] They are being self-centered. Their own sense of self-ease has a greater priority to them than the effect that they have on the world around them. These are the types who would happily allow their government to sign away their freedom to dispel any kind of evil that they have been warned about. Over time these converts happily become more child-like as they accept the conditioning of their church to not question but to just have faith that it will all turn out well in the end. [2.4]

2.1 - Quite condescending. Shows your character. 
2.2 - HOW could you possibly know what attracted them to say Christianity?!? I have never ever heard anyone's personal testimony say "I couldn't figure out what was right and wrong on my own, so...God". I'm not sure that would even make it on a list of top 100 reasons. Where do you get this nonsense?!?
2.3 - Again with the false belief that religion teaches the opposite of personal responsibility. 
2.4 - Not even a "some people..." in front of your idiotic rambling that does not follow EVEN from your untrue premises. 

Quote:Children play. They fantasise about all kinds of imaginative scenarios because they are not weighed down by plausibility, The hall mark of a child is when they don't think through how heir fantasies would work in practice. Yet this is what the religiously indoctrinated do all the time. Instead of wizard performing magic, or a superhero with unexplainable powers, it's a god performing holy-magic. None of it can be explained, and none of it is meant to be. And these fantasies give people the illusion of control over their lives and their reality. Prayer does not work. There is no way that it could work. Yet it is more fun and nicer to imagine that you are imbued with powerful magic and can influence the world around you than to realise that you cannot. Or that to do so actually takes effort or comes at great cost.

The problem is, how can you tell people to grow up when they literally want to continue holding onto a child-like innocence where everyone else makes the decisions for them?

Having utterly failed to link religious belief with childish thinking or maturity, you end with a series of assertions that center around one main assertion: God does not exist. Now, it is traditional for atheists here to hide behind the "I simply lack belief" nonsense. You, however are not. You are making a clear claim that God does not exists. Please support your assertion with proof.

I thought about addressing each one of her straws, but didnt have the motivation to sit here and do it, especially since it seems sp many people already have their minds made up that she's right about us.

Nonetheless, I'm really glad you stepped up to the plate. These responses are amazing. Well said!

(November 13, 2017 at 3:31 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 2:42 pm)alpha male Wrote: Of course. Substance abuse, toxic relationships, and self-induced stress are all factors that can contribute to depression. For me personally, I can't hold a grudge. It's like poison to me.

Contributing factors aren't causes. What about people like me who have fantastic lives and everything they want? I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, etc. I exercise, have a steady job, an amazing support system, etc. What personal choice did I make?

You made the personal choice not to read what I've actually said. I made it clear I wasn't talking about every case.

No you didn't.

---

Quote:Sorry, but people with mental illness apparently didn't follow this model.

When I google "causes of depression," here's the first hit:

http://www.depressiontoolkit.org/aboutyo...ession.asp

Quote:Although scientists agree that depression is a brain disorder, the debate continues about exact causes. Many factors may contribute to the onset of depression, including genetic characteristics, changes in hormone levels, certain medical illnesses, stress, grief, or substance abuse. Any of these factors alone or in combination can bring about the specific changes in brain chemistry that lead to the many symptoms of depression, bipolar disorder and related conditions.

Second hit:

https://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/c...pression#1

Quote:Conflict. Depression in someone who has the biological vulnerability to develop depression may result from personal conflicts or disputes with family members or friends.
...
Major events. Even good events such as starting a new job, graduating, or getting married can lead to depression. So can moving, losing a job or income, getting divorced, or retiring. However, the syndrome of clinical depression is never just a "normal" response to stressful life events.
...
Substance abuse. Nearly 30% of people with substance abuse problems also have major or clinical depression.

Some instances of these things aren't under a person's control, but many of them are. I get that it doesn't seem nice to note these things, but pretending that they're not so isn't helping people.

(November 13, 2017 at 3:39 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 3:31 pm)Shell B Wrote: Contributing factors aren't causes. What about people like me who have fantastic lives and everything they want? I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, etc. I exercise, have a steady job, an amazing support system, etc. What personal choice did I make?

You made the personal choice not to read what I've actually said. I made it clear I wasn't talking about every case.

 @Shell B

Theists and even atheists like me do drink, do smoke, no I don't do illegal drugs. I don't exercise. Shell I am sure you live a far healthier life than I do for sure. But lets not make it about that for them. 

I am sure my smoking won't help. But theists smoke and drink too, my point would be there is no magic to any human behavior. No cosmic sky hero is causing me to drink or smoke. There is no devil or Satan causing me to drink or smoke.

I am glad you are happy with your life Shell, but lets not give theists that fuel. My life isn't perfect no, but I aslo have no felony records, and I don't drink and drive, and I don't smoke around people who don't smoke, even in my own vehicle.

Theists love to point at our success and call it selfish, then when they cant do that, they point at our shortfalls and call it sin. Point is, it does not matter to them, there is always a magical super hero explaining everything humans do, to them. 

Alpha simply cant stand that you don't buy his hero, living the way you do, and cant stand that I don't buy his hero, living the way I do.

I can say I am not unhappy either Shell. Perfect? No, but hardly unhappy.

Yes, I did.

(November 10, 2017 at 9:23 am)alpha male Wrote: I agree that mental illness is a result of genes and environmental input. I'm simply noting that my own choices play a big role in my environment. That should be common sense. 

While there are instances of mental illness which are purely or mostly due to genetics or environmental effects completely outside one's control, personal choices frequently play a significant role.

A great Prophet, Yonus, was swallowed by a whale in the metaphysical realm, and it was the reality of grief he imposed on himself.

The grief he overwhelmed himself by was pure love of his people who he feared were to be punished, to the extent, he nearly died from it, till he repented to God and God saved him from the grief.

Alpha Male,  there is no shame of admitting you were wrong about mental illness.  Most people approach to it is wrong.

I do believe there is always an element of will and free-will involved in it, but,  is not a malicious type sin nor is out insight, the storms were wild, while we could have handle them and weathered them, and came out stronger,  but it is not something we wanted either.

No one wishes mental illness, just like no one wishes to have been gay.  Yet both are condemned in my view to a degree, but acting harshly to either is wrong. 

Neither can be cured by harshness, a soft approach is needed, and where we are condemned, it might even be better to not emphasize on it but rather be silent till the person awakens themselves and has recovered and is back on track.

Indeed in a time of peril, we were to pull the sword of God and resolve ourselves against it. We failed to and there is no excuse. 

But Adam fell to deceptions, the Great Sign of God (Yonus means sign), Yonus, was overcome by grief.

Maybe in time, we will learn to balance, but even great Prophets of God, went imbalanced at times, and were almost swallowed by their own grief and were caught in a dark stomach ready to destroy them.

Abraham and Sarah before being given Isaac were immersed in grief. 

May God heal every broken heart, mend the soul of every lone stranger, and cure every mental and physical illness in a very near future, with a relief from him, a relief that will free us of our own ignorance and injustice.

(November 13, 2017 at 3:25 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Bravo, Steve.  Funny how the self-proclaimed defenders of rationality will give kudos to such obvious drivel.

Funny; I think the exact same thing every time you guys give kudos to one of MK's threads.  😏

(November 13, 2017 at 4:04 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 3:25 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Bravo, Steve.  Funny how the self-proclaimed defenders of rationality will give kudos to such obvious drivel.

Funny; I think the exact same thing every time you guys give kudos to one of MK's threads.  😏

I get it LadyForCamus, you dream about me at night, and only way of dealing with it is to take frustration out on me in the day in the form of this supposed hate you have.

Just try not to make it too obvious. 

(November 13, 2017 at 1:53 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: And yet they one and all believe that we should love the Lord above all things and our neighbor as oneself. Funny, how that works.

Isn't it just, Then that common spirit would answer why they kill each other and go to war so wilfully.