(November 13, 2017 at 4:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Alpha Male,  there is no shame of admitting you were wrong about mental illness.  Most people approach to it is wrong.

I'm not wrong. I've supported my view - see the links above. People's actions can contribute to depression.

Quote:No one wishes mental illness, just like no one wishes to have been gay.  Yet both are condemned in my view to a degree, but acting harshly to either is wrong. 

Acknowledging the truth isn't "acting harshly," and it's a lot better than allowing people to bury their head in the sand and not try to change.

If I said that exercising tends to help prevent or eliminate depression:
- would you say I'm wrong?
- if not, would you say my statement was harsh?

If not, then why is talking about stress, toxic relationships or substance abuse different?

(November 13, 2017 at 5:12 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Brian I believe in two things:

1. Democratic anarchy in times when a Guiding King from God is not manifest.
2. Recognizing the government of God during the time a guiding king is manifest.

If I would return to be a Deist I would be a democratic anarchist. I would never acknowledge falsely in power that doesn't exist but is made up by people who manipulate others.

You are right Iran worships their government and it keeps them from truth.

ARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just when I think you are getting it, you post this!

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO..................

Chinese communists, AS A PARTY, not all the citizens, but enough, WORSHIP THE PARTY. Saudi Arabia is worship of the Sunni version of Islam. Israel has far too many whom worship Bibi Nuttyfuckwho.  America has far too many who worship white Christian Nationalism and giant orange Guerrilla Trump too. 

WORSHIP IS WORSHIP.

Lots of atheists worship Che, like theists. Che is the asshole who lead to Castro's Cuba. Other atheists like Christian Senator Paul Ryan, worship the economics of the late atheist Ayn Rand. I am no fan of either as an atheist.

Point is, don't point to Iran and not look at Saudi Arabia. Don't point to Jews and not look at Muslims. Don't point to Christians and not look at Muslims. I don't give even my own country, or my fellow atheists a pass.


You are still trying to point to Allah in all this. So? 

If government is to protect all, it would seem absurd to infect it with sectarian divisiveness. If you would not want to live as a Muslim under Iran's version, guess what? I would not want to live in Iran as an atheist. But a Shiite conversely would not want to live in Saudi Arabia for the same reason I as an atheist also would not want to live in Saudi Arabia.

Point is, in the west, we try, not always to the same degree, but in the west, we try to keep religion out of government so that we dont end up with an Iran. But we also don't allow one party monopolies either, so we don't end up with a North Korea or China.

If you want to believe everything leads to your God, we cant't stop you from having that personal belief. I am sure Christians like Catholic Lady and Alpha Male here would claim the Christian God allows government too.

I'd say that seems to be counter productive with all those divisions if we want to live in peace. I think when it comes to government religion needs to be left at the door. I don't mean outlawed, just left in the private sector.

(November 13, 2017 at 5:44 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 4:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Alpha Male,  there is no shame of admitting you were wrong about mental illness.  Most people approach to it is wrong.

I'm not wrong. I've supported my view - see the links above. People's actions can contribute to depression.

Quote:No one wishes mental illness, just like no one wishes to have been gay.  Yet both are condemned in my view to a degree, but acting harshly to either is wrong. 

Acknowledging the truth isn't "acting harshly," and it's a lot better than allowing people to bury their head in the sand and not try to change.

If I said that exercising tends to help prevent or eliminate depression:
- would you say I'm wrong?
- if not, would you say my statement was harsh?

If not, then why is talking about stress, toxic relationships or substance abuse different?

You really don't understand. 

There is no good in this false world people believe in, if it was just a small ounce of a grain, the Prophets would still be sent as a mercy so that we absolve ourselves from it.

Instead of seeing just as mental illness with a negative outlook, why don't you see the goodness in it?

A person going through depression is it really wrong to lose interest in a perishing false world and love that is vain?

A person lacking energy from the dark magic of demons and sorcerers, and can't relate to people with it nor understand how people are energized with it and in love with it,  so what if he loses interest, what if he is not motivated.

The problem is yes there is a cure but there is also a false replacement cure, a temporary fix, a patch that creates more problems.

A person that is unstable trying to find themselves, are they better or people satisfied with false masks they think is them but is but Iblis' ego feeding them.

Not saying a mental breakdown is the way to go, not saying losing will is the way to go, not saying any of that. 

But why do mentally people get picked on for not being perfect? 

Why are we expected to do all the healthy things but it's ok if others do the most unhealthy things but in their deception, are satisfied with their vain low lifestyles?


I am glad there is no way out of mental illness but the path of leading to perfection.   I am glad we have to be practically perfectly balanced to recover and make our way out of it.

I am glad we have to recover the foundations of what makes us human.

We aren't the only ones possessed by demons, we just tend not to love their demonic energy like most humans. That is the hugest factor to why we become ill that people never acknowledge.

Quote:No one wishes mental illness, just like no one wishes to have been gay.

I take exception to the second clause.  I know gay people who are absolutely delighted with it.


Boru

(November 13, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 12:00 pm)Whateverist Wrote: No instances of 'supernatural' phenomenon have ever been documented, except of course those relying on eye witness accounts.

That alone would not make it 'delusional' to believe in supernatural phenomena whether it's ESP, ghosts, alien abductions, NDE's or any other claim for which a skeptic does not accept as having sufficient evidence.

I don't think I ever said it was delusional, did I?

(November 13, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Just because those types of phenomena cannot be easily tested in a laboratory under controlled conditions doesn't mean it is irrational to think they could be real.

I personally think it is a little epistemically sloppy, but I don't claim to know what standard everyone must adhere to in order to be called 'rational'.  It doesn't tempt me in the least.  But to each his own.  I'm willing to trust the rationality of those who do profess to believe in things supernatural in measure with the way I experience them to be.  Whether or not someone harbors such a belief does not automatically make them a loony in my book.

(November 13, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The larger point is that atheists putting theistic beliefs in the same category as a serious mental illness is a mild form of anti-religious bigotry.

On that I would agree.

(November 13, 2017 at 8:11 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That alone would not make it 'delusional' to believe in supernatural phenomena whether it's ESP, ghosts, alien abductions, NDE's or any other claim for which a skeptic does not accept as having sufficient evidence.

I don't think I ever said it was delusional, did I?

(November 13, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Just because those types of phenomena cannot be easily tested in a laboratory under controlled conditions doesn't mean it is irrational to think they could be real.

I personally think it is a little epistemically sloppy, but I don't claim to know what standard everyone must adhere to in order to be called 'rational'.  It doesn't tempt me in the least.  But to each his own.  I'm willing to trust the rationality of those who do profess to believe in things supernatural in measure with the way I experience them to be.  Whether or not someone harbors such a belief does not automatically make them a loony in my book.

(November 13, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The larger point is that atheists putting theistic beliefs in the same category as a serious mental illness is a mild form of anti-religious bigotry.

On that I would agree.

Whateverist, all Theists I am sure love you because you are down to earth and look at Theists as worthy of a discussion. Our problem is with the great amount that are vocal and they say a lot of irrational garbage or just reassert their disbelief emotionally as a reaction when something for all they know (because they haven't analyzed enough to deny it) proves God.

If I see Atheists properly understand my arguments and argue with me presenting them properly, I would not have this impression that the vocal Atheists here over all are not searching to know the truth or settle this dispute.

(November 13, 2017 at 8:16 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If I see Atheists properly understand my arguments and argue with me presenting them properly, I would not have this impression that the vocal Atheists here over all are not searching to know the truth or settle this dispute.

Guilty. I am not seeking to justify my rejection of the categorically supernatural. Nor am I seeking to settle any dispute between believers and nonbelievers. (Not my problem.)

However I admittedly hold the bias that the 'supernatural' is an unnecessary category and an empty set. I don't have any proof for that position nor do I think it needs any. For my part, I'm willing to accept only so much agreement as is already there on the matter. I don't need to persuade you that I'm right about this. But it is an important difference between us in terms of how we see the world. It doesn't mean I can't share the world with you or that I think you and your side are all pathological. That so many on your side of the divide do feel compelled to persuade us that it is important and urgent to join you does worry me and can get in the way of our having much to do with each other.

(November 13, 2017 at 8:26 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 8:16 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If I see Atheists properly understand my arguments and argue with me presenting them properly, I would not have this impression that the vocal Atheists here over all are not searching to know the truth or settle this dispute.

Guilty.  I am not seeking to justify my rejection of the categorically supernatural.  Nor am I seeking to settle any dispute between believers and nonbelievers.  (Not my problem.)

However I admittedly hold the bias that the 'supernatural' is an unnecessary category and an empty set.  I don't have any proof for that position nor do I think it needs any.  For my part, I'm willing to accept only so much agreement as is already there on the matter.  I don't need to persuade you that I'm right about this.  But it is an important difference between us in terms of how we see the world.  It doesn't mean I can't share the world with you or that I think you and your side are all pathological.  That so many on your side of the divide to feel compelled to persuade us that it is important and urgent to join you does worry me and can get in the way of our having much to do with each other.

Yes but you admit it.  Unlike so many others who make it as if they reflected deeply about this subject and know there are no proofs.

And your stance is the stance I believe would be rational if Atheism were true.  There is no beautiful ultimate truth in Atheism. 

The others are like people who refuse to answer an exam but are frustrated with all the answers on exams because none of them appear to be perfect to them.

All religions have good answers. Hinduism emphasized on answers Christianity and Islam did little to. The native mythology about animals is important or else we cannot justify morality at all and it proves God in many ways, even if there inaccuracies in their mythology, the over all structure and wisdom is true.

The unnamed one the highest sky, etc...

So what if even they get most of the answers wrong or most essential answers wrong, they attempted to answer. 

And of course various religions give people opportunity to search for wisdom in different answers out there, but the problem is when we limit all knowledge to bunch of clergy.

And we all hate that type religion, Atlas hates it, I hate it, I am not sure if the Christian here do, but I imagine they do as well.

We can't limit the truth to a group of people.

And what Atheists have right and is right, is the need of evidence and proof for religion and the identity of God which religious people hardly care for mixing falsehood with it.

But following things with proof is a virtue and following without proofs is a vice - yet - the worse is when something is proven beyond doubt and we become hateful towards it.

No doubt there is a time for doubts, there is time for questioning, but there is time for listening, and there is also a time to a take leap of vision, take that leap that testifies to what we know.

Unfortunately, people loving the state of doubt, will take their doubt as some sort of resembling to nature to truth.  Not knowing something can never be called enlightenment.

(November 13, 2017 at 3:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 3:39 pm)alpha male Wrote: You made the personal choice not to read what I've actually said. I made it clear I wasn't talking about every case.

 @Shell B

Theists and even atheists like me do drink, do smoke, no I don't do illegal drugs. I don't exercise. Shell I am sure you live a far healthier life than I do for sure. But lets not make it about that for them. 

I am sure my smoking won't help. But theists smoke and drink too, my point would be there is no magic to any human behavior. No cosmic sky hero is causing me to drink or smoke. There is no devil or Satan causing me to drink or smoke.

I am glad you are happy with your life Shell, but lets not give theists that fuel. My life isn't perfect no, but I aslo have no felony records, and I don't drink and drive, and I don't smoke around people who don't smoke, even in my own vehicle.

Theists love to point at our success and call it selfish, then when they cant do that, they point at our shortfalls and call it sin. Point is, it does not matter to them, there is always a magical super hero explaining everything humans do, to them. 

Alpha simply cant stand that you don't buy his hero, living the way you do, and cant stand that I don't buy his hero, living the way I do.

I can say I am not unhappy either Shell. Perfect? No, but hardly unhappy.

I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing. What I said had nothing to do with theism or atheism.

---

(November 13, 2017 at 3:53 pm)alpha male Wrote: Yes, I did.

(November 10, 2017 at 9:23 am)alpha male Wrote: I agree that mental illness is a result of genes and environmental input. I'm simply noting that my own choices play a big role in my environment. That should be common sense. 

While there are instances of mental illness which are purely or mostly due to genetics or environmental effects completely outside one's control, personal choices frequently play a significant role.

So, you said that to someone else before we had the start of our conversation. I see.

(November 13, 2017 at 8:11 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 12:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The larger point is that atheists putting theistic beliefs in the same category as a serious mental illness is a mild form of anti-religious bigotry.

On that I would agree.

For the record, my usage of the term 'delusion' in this context was never meant to imply mental illness, serious or otherwise; it was as I described it; the beliefs surrounding smoking for example... and the way they are irrationally maintained. That is what I consider a delusion in this context; it refers to specific beliefs and the manner in which they are held, rather than as a wholesale judgment against a person; you could call me deluded for smoking, and yeah maybe I'd be pissed, and probably tell you to mind your own, but I would not take it either as you calling me mentally ill or as an attack on my person as a whole. If you were lucky then maybe I'd take notice when it was called out, and start to examine my beliefs surrounding smoking and maybe try to quit, but more often than not I would probably just go and have a fag and forget all about it, such is the nature of delusion to ignore stuff... until the next time... or until something on my end, bad health perhaps, prompted me to revisit it again.

My point was only about what I find credible/convincing evidence rationally, to me, personally; that just as I do not expect to be considered credible/convincing to others when I'm showing signs of being 'under the influence' as it were, of an emotionally/irrationally driven belief system like the delusion that surrounds smoking, I likewise do not find others credible/convincing when they display similar signs.

If you still want to call me bigoted, that's fine, but I just want you to be clear on my position before you make that judgment.