Created sick and commanded to be well.  OFC it's insane. Gods are famously less than sane.

(November 16, 2017 at 11:46 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 16, 2017 at 11:36 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:  Gender dysphoria is a medical condition with serious health consequences. 

Yeah, like a lynching by the religious.

When LBGTQ activists tacitly embrace post-modern ideas to support their positions it gives the more moderate religious folks common cause with the more extreme factions. On AF you don't get to see my arguments with the fringe right. I object just as strongly with biblical literalism on the issues. Someone in the middle, like me, who is willing to make ADA like accommodations to those with gender dysphoria, gets it from both sides. The fundies want it to be all about willful perversion and the activists want to normalize a mental illness. My beef isn't with transgenderism or homosexuality as-such; but as the underlying postmodern and/or anti-realist assumptions that inform the activist stance. My own views do not come directly from a wooden reading of scripture; but rather, a philosophical commitment to the notion that it means something to be human and that there are universal virtues associated with human nature.

(November 16, 2017 at 11:36 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(November 16, 2017 at 11:07 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: My eldest is transgender. While everyone is broadly supportive, there is one group which is not and hurls spittle flecked fulminations everywhere. The religious.

If someone has depression it does them no favors advising them to get over it. Conversely it is not helpful to normalize their illness by noting how many famous artists etc had depression. There is a balance. People with chronic illnesses should be neither demonized nor coddled. Gender dysphoria is a medical condition with serious health consequences. To frame it as a civil rights issue is as misguided as attributing it to mere personal choice.

How naive.

(November 16, 2017 at 12:15 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: When LBGTQ activists tacitly embrace post-modern ideas to support their positions it gives the more moderate religious folks common cause with the more extreme factions. On AF you don't get to see my arguments with the fringe right. I object just as strongly with biblical literalism on the issues. Someone in the middle, like me, who is willing to make ADA like accommodations to those with gender dysphoria, gets it from both sides. The fundies want it to be all about willful perversion and the activists want to normalize a mental illness.

You see...that's where you get it wrong.  "Activists"  read: people with basic functioning empathy...want to normalize the -solutions- to gender dysphoria.  Which is comfortable transgenderism, and yes..even surgery.

Quote:My beef isn't with transgenderism or homosexuality as-such;

Yes it is, stop.  There's no reason to couch yourself with me.

Quote:but as the underlying postmodern and/or anti-realist assumptions that inform the activist stance.

Not that you could accurately communicate any of it...so...again, nope..it;s the above..and you should be as comfortable in your skin on that count as anyone else. You see..I don;t insist that you stop being who you are or feeling the way you feel anymore than I insist as much for transgenders. I insist...in both of your cases, that you somehow find a way to know yourself, acknowledge yourself, and be comfortably transparent for and as what you both are.

Quote:My own views do not come directly from a wooden reading of scripture; but rather, a philosophical commitment to the notion that it means something to be human and that there are universal virtues associated with human nature.

Jesus christ on a pogo stick....... I don't think that your views come from a wooden reading of scripture anyway...sure, a wooden reading would feed those views...but you came to them long before you held a single "philosophical" opinion on -anything-.

I appreciate that you somehow find yourself beset upon all sides, but that doesn't actually indicate that your position on these issues is any more correct or measured. It just means that you've managed to piss everyone off. I'm not having any trouble seeing why.

(November 16, 2017 at 12:06 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Created sick and commanded to be well.  OFC it's insane.  Gods are famously less than sane.

It isn't that most humans are insane, but that bad logic gets turned into comic book mythology in the form of super heros vs super villains as a reflection of their own desires of control and defeat over rivals.

Humans simply don't like their social norms upset and they gap fill with stories of grand conquest in mythological stories to justify why they are right and should be on top.

God/god/s/deities are incapable of being insane just like Darth Vader is incapable of being insane. But humans have always been capable of creating grand stories as gap answers to describe fictional battles. 

Reality is much more mundane. 

Religion and god belief are nothing more than our species desire to be in control.

(November 16, 2017 at 12:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote: It isn't that most humans are insane, 

Arguable....lol. 

(November 16, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Khemikal Wrote: "Activists"  read: people with basic functioning empathy...want to normalize  the -solutions- to gender dysphoria.  Which is comfortable transgenderism, and yes..even surgery.

If surgical interventions work then so be it. At the same time, by definition a condition that requires medical intervention, like surgery, is a medical condition.

(November 16, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Khemikal Wrote:  I insist...in both of your cases, that you somehow find a way to know yourself, acknowledge yourself, and be comfortably transparent for and as what you both are.

Perhaps after you admit to your nihilism.  

(November 16, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Khemikal Wrote:  ...but you came to them long before you held a single "philosophical" opinion on -anything-.

I have always been very accepting of homosexuality even as an atheist. The difference is that when I converted to Christianity, I've started to think of it as a condition of misplaced desire, more akin to far-sightedness than cultivated sins like avarice or envy. But I cannot prevent you from wildly speculating on the hidden motivations of others or insisting that you can read minds.

(November 16, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Khemikal Wrote:  I appreciate that you somehow find yourself beset upon all sides, but that doesn't actually indicate that your position on these issues is any more correct or measured.

Indeed. I could be wrong. Ours is a difference of opinion. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise...despite the attempts of many people who are determined to make accusations of bigotry and hate over simple differences of opinion.

(November 16, 2017 at 11:23 am)SteveII Wrote:

(November 15, 2017 at 10:16 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: A genocidal dictator can save his 'soul' on his death bed, but an extremely ethical, moral atheist gets eternal punishment for a thought crime.

Why is this constantly mis-characterized? We are not punished for any one sin. We are separated from God for not being holy nor accepting the atonement that will make us so. No "punishment for a thought crime", just consequences for decisions we make.

I'll play this game. Why IS it constantly mischaracterized? By other christians with a personal relationship with their god? Don't blame us for not getting your version of the story straight.

(November 16, 2017 at 1:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: If surgical interventions work then so be it. At the same time, by definition a condition that requires medical intervention, like surgery, is a medical condition.

Sure, if some dangling bit is causing you so much misery that the only way to alleviate that is to lop it off..yeah, that's a medical issue.  

Quote:Perhaps after you admit to your nihilism.  

Tiring idiocy, next. 

Quote:I have always been very accepting of homosexuality even as an atheist. The difference is that when I converted to Christianity, I've started to think of it as a condition of misplaced desire, more akin to far-sightedness than cultivated sins like avarice or envy. But I cannot prevent you from wildly speculating on the hidden motivations of others or insisting that you can read minds.

If we asked one hundred people here to describe you, I doubt that "accepting of homosexuality" would make anyone's list but your own.  Either you just don;t know yourself very well..or you're an -exceedingly- poor communicator of who you are.

Quote:Indeed. I could be wrong. Ours is a difference of opinion. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise...despite the attempts of many people who are determined to make accusations of bigotry and hate over simple differences of opinion.

Bigotry and hatred have been normalized -as- "differences of opinion"...you yourself are no stranger to that work on these boards..you're doing it right now, in that comment...which is a delicious bit of irony to me...but entirely unnecessary.

It's OK...Neo, for you to have the kneejerk reaction you clearly have to gender non-conformity, to homosexuality, really, to anything you have a kneejerk reaction to. You're really not in control of that. None of us are. The only thing we control with regards to any of it is whether or not we can recognize it for what it is, if we can acknowledge and understand it, and ourselves. Sometimes, when people reach that point, they might change their minds...but they may not. They may be comfortable in it. Either way it;s more conducive to a conversation..because it cuts the endless pile of obfuscation and bullshit ala "admit your nihilism"...that comes out in you like tourrettes for no fucking reason..... It's impossible to have an authentic conversation with you.

Do you realize that? No one can cut through that garbage...and why would they even want to, why waste that time..............?

(November 16, 2017 at 10:43 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Yeah that's something you have shown total ignorance over . Trns [edit] nor is it a medical condition . Neither is homosexuality . No matter how much you bible thumping morons insist it is.

I think the people at the WHO, DSM-5 and ICD-10 people might disagree. Maybe change "medical" for "mental". 

Plus I think you'll have to admit they have a higher incidence of other coexisting medical conditions and need for medical treatment.