I don't think any sensible atheist would ever expect any answers worth taking seriously. I think threads like these are made to make a point.

I mean, seriously discussing belief in the Christian God Jehovah is no less absurd than seriously discussing belief in the Athenian God Zeus.

(November 17, 2017 at 1:30 pm)Hammy Wrote: I don't think any sensible atheist would ever expect any answers worth taking seriously. I think threads like these are made to make a point.

I dont agree. I think there are plenty of atheists here who are interested in genuine discussion of opposing view points as it pertains to religious beliefs. Whateverist and Fatandfaithless come to mind, but there are plenty others.

It's just a matter of distinguishing between them so i can engage with the ones who want to and ignore the ones who don't.

(November 17, 2017 at 1:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Ok. I don't think I'm going to take time to answer your questions and share my views if you're going to be so condescending. Obviously youre not actually genuinely interestes in knowing our views, only in mocking and being sarcastic. I should have known, considering your last thread, though I figured I'd give you a chance and answer you anyway. My mistake. Good bye.

That's why I didn't bother.

(November 17, 2017 at 1:38 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 1:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Ok. I don't think I'm going to take time to answer your questions and share my views if you're going to be so condescending. Obviously youre not actually genuinely interestes in knowing our views, only in mocking and being sarcastic. I should have known, considering your last thread, though I figured I'd give you a chance and answer you anyway. My mistake. Good bye.

That's why I didn't bother.

You and Neo both, as is evidenced by his sarcastic response lol. I usually try to give ppl the benefit of the doubt, though in this case it looks like you and Neo made the smarter decision not to.

(November 17, 2017 at 1:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think there are plenty of atheists here who are interested in genuine discussion of opposing view points as it pertains to religious beliefs.

Yes but I don't think the atheists who take religious belief seriously are being sensible. I think the fact that no one ever (whether atheist or theist) takes mythology or the Flying Spaghetti Monster seriously illustrates that.

All Christians, for instance, are atheists with regards to all other conceptions of God. That just demonstrates how silly belief in God is. For them to think their own particular cartoon character is the real one but all the others are just cartoons. The same applies to other religions of course.

AI find the foundation of conversion in Islam to be very twisted if you took the word of the Islamic Church for granted: with its Sunni and Shiite flavors.
Having these two verses from the source book -the Quran-; we can disprove what is claimed about what makes a person enter hell or not:

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
( 48 )   Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
( 116 )   Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.

It's official then that even a Muslim who associated other deities with God (AKA commit Shirk) is the among the damned. I personally believe that the majority of Muslims through the ages, commit Shirk. Currently; the Shiite faith and the Sunni faith has Shirk written all over them.

Just wanted to point you to that; very vividly.

Quote:How exactly do good and bad deeds get recorded? When you sign up, does some omnipresent omniscience holy force start following you around recording your every action? What about privacy concerns? How can we be sure that our actions will be properly judged? What kind of character witnesses does your god have? Is there an appeal court for decisions that we do not agree with? Or is it judged by what's in your heart? In which case those with huge egos or who suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect will automatically get the most rewards because they sincerely believe that they are the best at everything. And if your every action does not get recorded but your memory gets read instead, then is there a risk that a lifetime of good deeds will get wiped out because of senility, neuro-degenerative disease or death by head injury? Are there off-site backups in place?

As you can see this opens up a lot of questions and I would like theists to explain how their god's loyalty reward scheme works in practice. I think this will be useful because most atheists are agnostic and do not have a belief that there is no god, rather they just lack a belief that there is one. This will be an opportunity for theists to advertise their particular god so potential converts can choose the personal salvation plan that is most suitable for them.

Please describe what exactly the paradise being offered is like, the minimum required to avoid Hell, whether your loyalty reward scheme is incomptiable with other reward schemes on offer and what exactly is required for it to apply. After all, we're all used to insurance companies using some excuse not to pay out and we wouldn't want to judged as being the wrong type of christian for example.

The source book (The Quran) has a list of good/bad actions scattered around 600 pages; thus the bad should be avoided and the good should be practiced. Our whole life, actions and deeds are recorded:

Quote:Sura 50, The Quran:
( 16 )   And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein
( 17 )   When the two receivers receive, seated on the right and on the left.
( 18 )   Man does not utter any word except that with him is an observer prepared [to record].

Quote:Sura 45, The Quran:
( 28 )   And you will see every nation kneeling [from fear]. Every nation will be called to its record [and told], "Today you will be recompensed for what you used to do.
( 29 )   This, Our record (in the afterlife), speaks about you in truth. Indeed, We were having transcribed whatever you used to do."
( 30 )   So as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, their Lord will admit them into His mercy. That is what is the clear attainment.
( 31 )   But as for those who disbelieved, [it will be said], "Were not Our verses recited to you, but you were arrogant and became a people of criminals?

Everything is being written in a record. Privacy has no meaning in front of your own creator. Just like mothers and their toddlers.
We will be judged for everything, even the tiniest thought we ever had.
Everything.

To avoid hell; one must be chosen by God:

Quote:Sura 19, The Quran:
( 67 )   Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
( 68 )   So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.
( 69 )   Then We will surely extract from every sect those of them who were worst against the Most Merciful in insolence.
( 70 )   Then, surely it is We who are most knowing of those most worthy of burning therein.
( 71 )   And there is none of you except he will come to it. This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed.
( 72 )   Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees.

All of us will fail as it seems. But only the wretched worse will remain kneeling; while the good rest is taken by the mercy of God.

(November 17, 2017 at 1:44 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 1:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think there are plenty of atheists here who are interested in genuine discussion of opposing view points as it pertains to religious beliefs.

Yes but I don't think the atheists who take religious belief seriously are being sensible. I think the fact that no one ever (whether atheist or theist) takes mythology or the Flying Spaghetti Monster seriously illustrates that.

All Christians, for instance, are atheists with regards to all other conceptions of God. That just demonstrates how silly belief in God is. For them to think their own particular cartoon character is the real one but all the others are just cartoons. The same applies to other religions of course.

I don't believe in other religions or other gods, but I'd still be interested in talking to a Buddhist or a Hindu, etc, about their religious beliefs in genuine discussion. I think it would be interesting to hear their views. I certainly wouldn't ask them questions just so i could mock the answers they took time to give me, and be sarcastic and condecending towards them. But that's just me I guess.

(November 17, 2017 at 1:50 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: AI find the foundation of conversion in Islam to be very twisted if you took the word of the Islamic Church for granted: with its Sunni and Shiite flavors.
Having these two verses from the source book -the Quran-; we can disprove what is claimed about what makes a person enter hell or not:

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
( 48 )   Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
( 116 )   Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.

It's official then that even a Muslim who associated other deities with God (AKA commit Shirk) is the among the damned. I personally believe that the majority of Muslims through the ages, commit Shirk. Currently; the Shiite faith and the Sunni faith has Shirk written all over them.

Just wanted to point you to that; very vividly.

Quote:How exactly do good and bad deeds get recorded? When you sign up, does some omnipresent omniscience holy force start following you around recording your every action? What about privacy concerns? How can we be sure that our actions will be properly judged? What kind of character witnesses does your god have? Is there an appeal court for decisions that we do not agree with? Or is it judged by what's in your heart? In which case those with huge egos or who suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect will automatically get the most rewards because they sincerely believe that they are the best at everything. And if your every action does not get recorded but your memory gets read instead, then is there a risk that a lifetime of good deeds will get wiped out because of senility, neuro-degenerative disease or death by head injury? Are there off-site backups in place?

As you can see this opens up a lot of questions and I would like theists to explain how their god's loyalty reward scheme works in practice. I think this will be useful because most atheists are agnostic and do not have a belief that there is no god, rather they just lack a belief that there is one. This will be an opportunity for theists to advertise their particular god so potential converts can choose the personal salvation plan that is most suitable for them.

Please describe what exactly the paradise being offered is like, the minimum required to avoid Hell, whether your loyalty reward scheme is incomptiable with other reward schemes on offer and what exactly is required for it to apply. After all, we're all used to insurance companies using some excuse not to pay out and we wouldn't want to judged as being the wrong type of christian for example.

The source book (The Quran) has a list of good/bad actions scattered around 600 pages; thus the bad should be avoided and the good should be practiced. Our whole life, actions and deeds are recorded:

Quote:Sura 50, The Quran:
( 16 )   And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein
( 17 )   When the two receivers receive, seated on the right and on the left.
( 18 )   Man does not utter any word except that with him is an observer prepared [to record].

Quote:Sura 45, The Quran:
( 28 )   And you will see every nation kneeling [from fear]. Every nation will be called to its record [and told], "Today you will be recompensed for what you used to do.
( 29 )   This, Our record (in the afterlife), speaks about you in truth. Indeed, We were having transcribed whatever you used to do."
( 30 )   So as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, their Lord will admit them into His mercy. That is what is the clear attainment.
( 31 )   But as for those who disbelieved, [it will be said], "Were not Our verses recited to you, but you were arrogant and became a people of criminals?

Everything is being written in a record. Privacy has no meaning in front of your own creator. Just like mothers and their toddlers.
We will be judged for everything, even the tiniest thought we ever had.
Everything.

To avoid hell; one must be chosen by God:

Quote:Sura 19, The Quran:
( 67 )   Does man not remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
( 68 )   So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.
( 69 )   Then We will surely extract from every sect those of them who were worst against the Most Merciful in insolence.
( 70 )   Then, surely it is We who are most knowing of those most worthy of burning therein.
( 71 )   And there is none of you except he will come to it. This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed.
( 72 )   Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees.

All of us will fail as it seems. But only the wretched worse will remain kneeling; while the good rest is taken by the mercy of God.

Wow. Quotes from a book that support your beliefs from a book that you believe is true without any evidence. How novel.

(November 17, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Wow.  Quotes from a book that support your beliefs from a book that you believe is true without any evidence.  How novel.

Seems appropriate considering the questions asked in OP. What exactly were you expecting? Typical lame atheist tag-team tactic.

(November 17, 2017 at 2:18 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 17, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Wow.  Quotes from a book that support your beliefs from a book that you believe is true without any evidence.  How novel.

Seems appropriate considering the questions asked in OP. What exactly were you expecting?    Typical lame atheist tag-team tactic.

That is exactly what he (and the OP) was expecting. 

Like we said, some folks ask people questions but aren't actually interested in their answer/in discussion.