Something we agree on!

IMO we have to define 'goodness' to get to perfection. And perfection is just absolute goodness. But that only covers moral perfection (assuming that the kind of goodness we are talking about is moral. If not we have a long list of kinds of 'goodness' to go through).

And IMO moral goodness is something that only exists as a hypothetical. I don't believe there is any being or state of moral perfection that exists.

(November 20, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 2:47 pm)SteveII Wrote: Do you realize that a perfect being would have to have perfect knowledge?

Bollocks.  Tell me, Steve, what does it mean to say that something is "perfect"?

Hmmm .. possibly true if Steve himself were that perfect agent.  Bah, probably not.

(November 20, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 2:47 pm)SteveII Wrote: Do you realize that a perfect being would have to have perfect knowledge?

Bollocks.  Tell me, Steve, what does it mean to say that something is "perfect"?

Basically, maximally ideal for its intended purpose. But when it's modifying 'being', we are talking more about abilities. Doesn't matter though, I followed up that sentence with a clarification that was at least sufficient to cover the OP's attempt to link free will with learning by trial and error. You cannot escape learning by trial and error without the knowledge of everything appropriate to being human (including moral knowledge).

(November 20, 2017 at 3:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Bollocks.  Tell me, Steve, what does it mean to say that something is "perfect"?

per·fect
adjective

ˈpərfikt/

1. 1.
   having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be
   "she strove to be the perfect wife"

.. according to who? I mean, I know, according to God right? But since He isn't here to check in with which one of us is in position know about perfect .. including what it means?

Free will: The idea that either determinism is false except we can determine ourselves because magic.

(compatabilism is more akin to pantheism, trivially true and utterly irrelevant and futile).

(November 20, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Bollocks.  Tell me, Steve, what does it mean to say that something is "perfect"?

Basically, maximally ideal for its intended purpose. But when it's modifying 'being', we are talking more about abilities. Doesn't matter though, I followed up that sentence with a clarification that was at least sufficient to cover the OP's attempt to link free will with learning by trial and error. You cannot escape learning by trial and error without the knowledge of everything appropriate to being human (including moral knowledge).

What is my intended purpose, oh Steve?

(November 20, 2017 at 3:43 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: Basically, maximally ideal for its intended purpose. But when it's modifying 'being', we are talking more about abilities. Doesn't matter though, I followed up that sentence with a clarification that was at least sufficient to cover the OP's attempt to link free will with learning by trial and error. You cannot escape learning by trial and error without the knowledge of everything appropriate to being human (including moral knowledge).

What is my intended purpose, oh Steve?

To do what God wants of you. i.e. your intended purpose is God's intended purpose?

God? You know, that guy whose presence is indistinguishable from his absence?

Hmm... I make God sound like the classic deadbeat dad.

(November 20, 2017 at 3:43 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: Basically, maximally ideal for its intended purpose. But when it's modifying 'being', we are talking more about abilities. Doesn't matter though, I followed up that sentence with a clarification that was at least sufficient to cover the OP's attempt to link free will with learning by trial and error. You cannot escape learning by trial and error without the knowledge of everything appropriate to being human (including moral knowledge).

What is my intended purpose, oh Steve?

To love and be loved.

(November 20, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Bollocks. Tell me, Steve, what does it mean to say that something is "perfect"?

Basically, maximally ideal for its intended purpose.

What is God's intended purpose?

(November 20, 2017 at 3:59 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 20, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: Basically, maximally ideal for its intended purpose.

What is God's intended purpose?

To wiggle his arm when Steve wiggles his finger.


Wait!  Was that God's voice or Steve's from behind the curtain?