Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 1:51 pm
(This post was last modified: December 9, 2017 at 1:54 pm by Jehanne.)
(December 9, 2017 at 11:44 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (December 9, 2017 at 10:46 am)Jehanne Wrote: You are literally saying that this issue is entirely subjective. Thank you.
Oh, yeah, like it is "subjective" to say that the State should have control over my hands and what I can do with those hands with respect to my own body.
The issue is not at all about what your hands do to your own body. When what your hands do, kills another human being, then it is no longer just your concern. This is a horrible way to try to avoid the issue, and justify killing little humans.
[/quote]
Is an acorn an oak tree?
(December 9, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Objective morality makes no sense unless you believe in a deity
Says who? You?? Does 2+2=4 make sense only with belief in a deity?? I cannot imagine that 2+2 is anything other than 4. Ditto for morality; there are certain acts that are intrinsically evil. Abortion is not one of those acts! In fact, good Catholic women have been having abortions for many centuries.
Posts: 11697
Threads: 117
Joined: November 5, 2016
Reputation:
43
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 2:26 pm
The hands analogy fails .Because the womb is not being used as a weapon to kill someone . Something unwanted is being removed. And no the distinction argument is irrelevant .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
Posts: 8709
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 3:27 pm
(December 9, 2017 at 1:51 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (December 9, 2017 at 11:44 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Oh, yeah, like it is "subjective" to say that the State should have control over my hands and what I can do with those hands with respect to my own body.
The issue is not at all about what your hands do to your own body. When what your hands do, kills another human being, then it is no longer just your concern. This is a horrible way to try to avoid the issue, and justify killing little humans.
Is an acorn an oak tree?
(December 9, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Objective morality makes no sense unless you believe in a deity
Says who? You?? Does 2+2=4 make sense only with belief in a deity?? I cannot imagine that 2+2 is anything other than 4. Ditto for morality; there are certain acts that are intrinsically evil. Abortion is not one of those acts! In fact, good Catholic women have been having abortions for many centuries.
[/quote]
Actually math facts only makes sense with deity.
Posts: 8214
Threads: 394
Joined: November 2, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 3:48 pm
(December 9, 2017 at 12:32 pm)wallym Wrote: (December 9, 2017 at 12:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Wallym, do you remember the argument, if morality is objective, than it is eternal? It made use of some premises and then proved this conclusion.
So do you find fault with that argument? That would be a fact about morality. I will rephrase it to suit our purposes:
1. If a hypothetical Creator can create morality from nothing, it would be able to make it what it wishes.
2. If it can make it what it wishes, it can be arbitrary.
3. If it can be arbitrary, it can be the case that torturing an innocent soul forever morally good to do.
4. It is impossible it is morally good to do if objective morality exists.
5. If objective morality exists, than a Creator cannot create objective morality from nothing.
6. If a hypothetical Creator cannot create objective morality out of nothing than nothing else can.
7. Therefore if objective morality exists, it is eternal.
And if we combine it with our argument, we see we have vivid knowledge, that cannot be objective morality and non-eternal at the same time.
That means we do have knowledge of an objective moral fact which if premise 1 is true, would prove objective morality to be real.
The problem with introducing anything that doesn't exist in reality into reality, is that it means we're talking about a new hypothetical reality. And the nature of a hypothetical reality can't be known. In a hypothetical reality, do things follow logically? You can't know that they do. So even an ironclad proof formed with the logic in our reality can't say anything about the nature of a hypothetical reality.
So in a hypothetical reality with a Creator, there are no premises for us to build arguments on.
It's the same reason, as an Atheist, I no longer make arguments that try to point out contradictions in the nature of a hypothetical God. Because those contradictions exist according to logic and understanding of our reality. But a hypothetical God doesn't exist in our reality. It's like saying Harry Potter can't fly because of Gravity. You can always use hypothetical possible worlds to prove things.
Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 4:03 pm
(December 9, 2017 at 3:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (December 9, 2017 at 1:51 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The issue is not at all about what your hands do to your own body. When what your hands do, kills another human being, then it is no longer just your concern. This is a horrible way to try to avoid the issue, and justify killing little humans.
Is an acorn an oak tree?
(December 9, 2017 at 12:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Objective morality makes no sense unless you believe in a deity
Says who? You?? Does 2+2=4 make sense only with belief in a deity?? I cannot imagine that 2+2 is anything other than 4. Ditto for morality; there are certain acts that are intrinsically evil. Abortion is not one of those acts! In fact, good Catholic women have been having abortions for many centuries. Actually math facts only makes sense with deity.
[/quote]
So, God "caused" 2+2 to equal 4; could he/she/it have caused it to equal '5'? Or, any other number, for that matter?
Posts: 11697
Threads: 117
Joined: November 5, 2016
Reputation:
43
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 4:20 pm
Any atheist universe is a mathematical universe. Math does not require god .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
Posts: 879
Threads: 57
Joined: November 8, 2017
Reputation:
6
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 4:33 pm
(December 9, 2017 at 4:03 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (December 9, 2017 at 3:27 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Is an acorn an oak tree?
Says who? You?? Does 2+2=4 make sense only with belief in a deity?? I cannot imagine that 2+2 is anything other than 4. Ditto for morality; there are certain acts that are intrinsically evil. Abortion is not one of those acts! In fact, good Catholic women have been having abortions for many centuries. Actually math facts only makes sense with deity.
So, God "caused" 2+2 to equal 4; could he/she/it have caused it to equal '5'? Or, any other number, for that matter?
[/quote]
2 + 2 only equals 4 in the power of ten. In the power of 25 then 2 + 2 = 5 (I will probably be corrected)
Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 4:39 pm
(December 9, 2017 at 4:33 pm)Haipule Wrote: (December 9, 2017 at 4:03 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Actually math facts only makes sense with deity.
So, God "caused" 2+2 to equal 4; could he/she/it have caused it to equal '5'? Or, any other number, for that matter? 2 + 2 only equals 4 in the power of ten. In the power of 25 then 2 + 2 = 5 (I will probably be corrected)
[/quote]
2+2 = 4 is true in any base system:
0010 + 0010 = 0100 (binary, base 2)
Posts: 879
Threads: 57
Joined: November 8, 2017
Reputation:
6
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 4:44 pm
(This post was last modified: December 9, 2017 at 4:44 pm by Haipule.)
(December 9, 2017 at 4:39 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (December 9, 2017 at 4:33 pm)Haipule Wrote: So, God "caused" 2+2 to equal 4; could he/she/it have caused it to equal '5'? Or, any other number, for that matter? 2 + 2 only equals 4 in the power of ten. In the power of 25 then 2 + 2 = 5 (I will probably be corrected)
2+2 = 4 is true in any base system:
0010 + 0010 = 0100 (binary, base 2)
[/quote]
I think I meant the power of 12.5 anyway
Posts: 66339
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: List of reasons to believe God exists?
December 9, 2017 at 4:44 pm
(December 9, 2017 at 3:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You can always use hypothetical possible worlds to prove things.
Indeed we can, and even to prove things about this world, for example:
In a possible world with no god where there where moral facts, objective morality would exist.
This world is, at least, a world in which there may be moral facts, and so.. regardless of whether or not there is a god in this world, there may be an objective morality.
Ergo, god is irrelevant to objective morality in this or any possible world in which there are moral facts.
Ta-da.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
