(August 22, 2011 at 12:09 pm)Godnose Wrote: That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Unfortunately I seem to be crap at it.

OK, look, (a) this is not a sure proven method or anything, it's just an idea and (b) it probably won't sound particularly original. But I've thought and thought and thought about it, and it seems to me the only chance there is of de-powering existing religions.

Whatever you like to think about religions, you have to admit that it's proved to be a pretty darned effective way of getting loads of folks to all dance to the same tune. So my suggestion basically is simply this: Copy their methods only steer folk in the right direction instead of a wrong one.

I know it seems like we're all pissing in your cheerios (though I promise we're not all bad) so I hope you realize I'm not trying to be especially bitchy or anything - I just want to point out a few flaws in the ideas you have that I see. I realize from your comments in your first thread that it's not as easy for everyone and that any of my opinions come from my own experience and those of my friends. Just getting that out of the way.

I realize that others may not have the luxury, but here in Charlotte there is an area specific forum who meets up on a regular basis to do social functions, to do volunteer and charity work, etc. They're incredibly welcoming.

I know you don't like the reception you received on this forum, but my personal experience is that before you try to ask the hard questions of any group you should first establish a little cred. The core group of us are familiar with each other and quite loving - and also quite welcoming to new comers, as you will see from just about every introductory post. As an atheist, I'm sure you're at least somewhat familiar with the habit of people trolling our forums and virtual hang outs. It makes us suspicious.

Now, we've all heard the line that "atheists have nothing in common" other than the fact that we don't believe in gods. The thing about religions, no matter how many permutations they have, is that they are all under one major heading, following the message and supernatural ideas you mentioned. Atheists don't have that. Some of us might have similar interests, but the best you could hope for is a community center that catered to a diverse group. If you want something more like a church with the organizing power of a belief system, atheists would have to congregate with their particular philosophical systems. I know there is actually a humanistic Jewish "movement" that meets up, but my problem is that on Friday nights I'd rather be shooting the shit about agriculture and smartassery with Rhythm than discussing Jewish history with a bunch of other people - even if they share my beliefs. Because there's no "god" expecting me to meet up with anyone and listen to his message, I'm not even interested in hearing philosophical points expounded on. I could do that on a podcast and save the gas money. I understand that this is just me.

People respond to incentives, and unfortunately there isn't something intrinsically bound into atheism itself to make people bind together in a powerful enough way to over-topple religion. Humanist groups might have a good start by providing the "be nice feel good" social setting, but not every atheist identifies as a humanist, or cares. Skeptics promoting science and critical thinking have an excellent chance, but not all of them are actually atheists. And not all atheists are actually anti-theists. They just want to be left alone and valued as humans.

There's no easy way for us all to band together to get religion out of our lives because we all have a slightly different idea of how it should be done - politically, scientifically, etc. Christians at least have the unifying factor of believing in Christ, but atheists don't even have the want to undermine religion to bring them all under one roof.

PS - I don't have a short attention span, even though it's hard for me to get into long posts at work. I still really like them, so keep them coming.

(August 22, 2011 at 2:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: If I wanted to put up with all the shit you have listed there I'd join a fucking church.


I'm not that sociable. Most people suck.

Yes, I can't really disagree with that sentiment. But it's not about you my friend, or about me for that matter. I believe (somewhat desperately, I have to say) that the world needs to get better and one of the things that means, IMMO, is somehow get shot of the predominance of religious influences. And that would seem to require putting something in its place, because for some reason that I must admit is totally beyond me, loads of people really do seem to want to put up with the kind of stuff I listed.

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(August 22, 2011 at 2:30 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: You can go do all that shite Godnose, but I'll skip. I really do have much better things to do with my time.

There is an underlying motive. I'm not just going on about this thing for the sake of it. I really do think that something effective needs to be done to undermine the existing power of religions, because they are causing or contributing to a fantastic amount of damage. But if you have better things to do, of course go do them.

(August 22, 2011 at 2:47 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: PS - I don't have a short attention span, even though it's hard for me to get into long posts at work. I still really like them, so keep them coming.

Clearly, you are far kinder and more patient than I am. His general motto on all of his threads seems to be: "Atheists should take tips from the church because they have it all figured out. They are providing something that the public truly needs." What kind of atheist promotes and even praises the actions of the church to a point that it feels like he's actually trying to sell it to other atheists as a template to be followed??

I find this sentiment to be truly disgusting considering the atrocities that religion has brought upon this planet. Furthermore, as Shell B and yourself have pointed out multiple times, there are many social outlets where one can meet up weekly to mire them self in group interaction if so desired.

As I pointed out in an earlier post ... the whole idea is a broken record and I for one, would love to see him discuss something else or return to lurking in the corners.

If he wants to keep discussing it because he truly had no idea about the outlets we all have, I'm game. My problem with his initial thread was how negative it was. He seems to be trying to be more positive here. Either he's acting as you say (and mind, I did suggest he felt guilty in the other thread) or he's not articulating what he actually means.

Also, I'm friends with quite a few anti-social or socially awkward weirdos of all stripes and ages and I understand what's it's like to not have the first clue of where to look or go for what you want. He wants to talk, let's talk. I think his ideas are shite, it's my job to explain why. Otherwise I wouldn't be here on this forum. I did suggest (in the this one) that he try to get to know people here first before throwing these questions around, and I thought I did mention (in the other) that he change the *way* he asked them.

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PS - Cinjin, you know I'm a daisy anyway.

Churches weren't created by god, they were created by people to fulfill the needs of people. Doesn't it make sense to provide for those needs without resorting to magic and god? I think many people stay in church because there is no god-free alternative, and they don't want to be cut off from the thing that meets their needs... church.

@summerqueen
Your post was clear and concise as always.

Like I said, you are a kinder, gentler person than I. Sweetheart.

Quote: I really do think that something effective needs to be done to undermine the existing power of religions,

That would be reason and science. Knowledge and understanding. Not turning atheism into a fucking church.

Quote:But if you have better things to do, of course go do them.

Indeed I shall. Women!

(August 22, 2011 at 3:33 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Churches weren't created by god, they were created by people to fulfill the needs of people. Doesn't it make sense to provide for those needs without resorting to magic and god? I think many people stay in church because there is no god-free alternative, and they don't want to be cut off from the thing that meets their needs... church.

That's true enough. Even the pres of AA said he thought many Orthodox Jews stayed despite not believing because they felt they had nowhere else to go. I don't object to a haven, just the idea that there has to be a particular atheist message preached.

(August 22, 2011 at 3:33 pm)Cinjin Wrote: @summerqueen
Your post was clear and concise as always.

Like I said, you are a kinder, gentler person than I. Sweetheart.

Care to tell my ex that? lol

I respect this guy's willingness to TRY i'll give him that.

TSQ,

Like I said earlier, there is much chaff in that post, but I do feel that some kind of secular temple or community center could help people to see that we don't need to pretend to believe in god to connect with society.