Old church biddie's cakes. And pies.

And lemon bars....Yep.

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(December 24, 2017 at 9:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote: But the fuckers are constantly stressed.  They can't fart without offending their silly-assed god.

In nearly all of your posts you make references to the other end of the torso, why is that?
It is typical of people who have been sexually abused, and/or who are criminal in that area.
You wouldn't want to talk about that would you?
I know who is stressed.

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(December 24, 2017 at 9:45 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 9:06 am)Wololo Wrote: That was kind of the original idea in christianity. It wasn't until well after it became the official religion of the empire that on your deathbed was no longer the accepted place of conversion.

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Even though the most basic level of thought towards it would show it false.

Yep. Critical thinking involves trying to look for the most reasonable explanation using the most reasonable approach(es) available to us, even if it leads us to a truth that is disturbing and challenges their current views. Given all the arguments Ive heard, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Catholics, or other people of religious faith, have arrived at religious truths using critical thinking skills.

That's like saying, "I find it incredibly hard to believe how people can fall in love and actually produce another living human being, that believe it or not, starts off as a helpless and dependant baby, without using critical thinking skills."

(December 24, 2017 at 9:14 pm)Starhunter Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 1:29 pm)Mermaid Wrote: I envy Christians, or anyone with a solid faith. It has to be nice to give over to a higher power and not stress about things.

That higher power, is with you today, even since you were concieved, angels of God have protected you, against evil angels, and made certain that your ultimate salvation is not jeopardised, and yet they have always stepped back when it comes to your decision making and free choice.
You have never been allowed to experience anything that you could not handle, and the spirit of God has revived your hopes many times without you knowing it.
God has granted you life, to be part of the human experience, and one day you will have the privilege of standing in fornt of billions of human beings from all eras, and tell them your life story. The thought of losing you hurts God so much, that he doesn't want to exist without you. The death of Christ was a demonstration of that. He always knew that he would rise from the dead, but while on the cross he thought that he was gone forever, yet he hoped that his sacrifice would work to save all of humanity, so he hung in there and died.
You have every right to talk to God, he will never forget a word or wisper.

Have a safe holiday.

Yyyyeah. That's not gonna hold water with me. 

You have a nice holiday, too though.

(December 24, 2017 at 11:38 pm)Starhunter Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 9:45 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Yep. Critical thinking involves trying to look for the most reasonable explanation using the most reasonable approach(es) available to us, even if it leads us to a truth that is disturbing and challenges their current views. Given all the arguments Ive heard, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Catholics, or other people of religious faith, have arrived at religious truths using critical thinking skills.

That's like saying, "I find it incredibly hard to believe how people can fall in love and actually produce another living human being, that believe it or not, starts off as a helpless and dependant baby, without using critical thinking skills."

Read this too many times and still makes no sense to me.

(December 24, 2017 at 9:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 1:29 pm)Mermaid Wrote: I envy Christians, or anyone with a solid faith. It has to be nice to give over to a higher power and not stress about things.

But the fuckers are constantly stressed.  They can't fart without offending their silly-assed god.

I don't see it that way. Everyone has their stressors, but it has to be good to be able to rely on a parent for guidance, that's kind of how I see it. Worried about never seeing someone you love again after they die? Let God show you the way. Worried about the direction your life is going? Give it up to God for guidance. Worried about a scary health problem? Give it up to God and His will.

Sure, people with religion have stressors just like people without. They may be different stressors though.

(December 25, 2017 at 10:58 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 11:38 pm)Starhunter Wrote: That's like saying, "I find it incredibly hard to believe how people can fall in love and actually produce another living human being, that believe it or not, starts off as a helpless and dependant baby, without using critical thinking skills."

Read this too many times and still makes no sense to me.

I think what SH is saying is that one arrives at religious truths without critical thinking, much the same way that a baby is produced without critical thinking. What his proposition fails to recognize, however, is that critical thinking prevents error by subjecting all ideas to scrutiny.  Critical thinking isn't about producing an idea. It's about finding the right idea. He thinks critical thinking is like "inventing" or "giving birth to" ideas-- no. It's a process whereby an idea's validity is tested.

IMO (assuming that I have correctly interpreted SH's statement) it is a bad analogy.

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(December 24, 2017 at 9:14 pm)Starhunter Wrote: You have never been allowed to experience anything that you could not handle...

Where do Christians get this idea? Anyone who has suffered a traumatic event which caused them to commit suicide was "given more than they could handle" by my definition. It happens, too.

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/co-...uicide.asp

Quote:A body of research indicates that there is a correlation between many types of trauma and suicidal behaviors. For example, there is evidence that traumatic events such as childhood abuse may increase a person's suicide risk (4,5). A history of military sexual trauma (MST) also increases the risk for suicide and intentional self-harm, suggesting a need to screen for suicide risk in this population (6).

"God" gives people more than they can handle all the time. When Christians claim this, does it come with a footnote? (Christians work better with editing powers, don't cha know.)

"Do not bear false witness [unless you don't like the guy or he has offended you]"

"Give away all your wealth [unless you like having your wealth around]"

"Judge not [if it is September 26th 1964 at 3:29 PM and you're standing in the shade, otherwise judge all you want]"

(December 24, 2017 at 6:47 pm)Cyberman Wrote: I'm so gay, I wrap right around the spectrum and crave the pusseh.

I love anal sex so I must be extremely gay.

Sure, I only give anal and I only like lady butts but as my homophobic stepdad informs me: Wanting to fuck ass means you're gay. I mean, the arse is a totally masculine body part. It's not as if women normally have bums too now is it?! And even on the occasion when a woman does possess a bum, their bum is always very hairy and shaped like a man's arse ain't it?

Of course, my stepdad may just be a total arsehole and surely he can't really be homophobic because he has had at least two gay friends!

Oh and also... acting camp means you're gay.

Personally I am totally fine with the fact I'm heterosexual but at least I have the decency to act gay in public:

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(December 24, 2017 at 9:14 pm)Starhunter Wrote: The thought of losing you hurts God so much, that he doesn't want to exist without you. The death of Christ was a demonstration of that. He always knew that he would rise from the dead, but while on the cross he thought that he was gone forever[...]

My bold.

I thought he was supposed to be omniscient?!

(December 25, 2017 at 10:58 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 11:38 pm)Starhunter Wrote: That's like saying, "I find it incredibly hard to believe how people can fall in love and actually produce another living human being, that believe it or not, starts off as a helpless and dependant baby, without using critical thinking skills."

Read this too many times and still makes no sense to me.

Sorry, I messed that one up. 
What I was trying to say is, the most complex and important things in life occur without critical thinking, so what makes you think that critical thinking is the way to find the answers to some of life's big questions?

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(December 25, 2017 at 10:50 am)Mermaid Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 9:14 pm)Starhunter Wrote: That higher power, is with you today...

Have a safe holiday.

Yyyyeah. That's not gonna hold water with me. 

You have a nice holiday, too though.

Why, may I ask?

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(December 25, 2017 at 11:13 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(December 25, 2017 at 10:58 am)Grandizer Wrote: Read this too many times and still makes no sense to me.

I think what SH is saying is that one arrives at religious truths without critical thinking, much the same way that a baby is produced without critical thinking. What his proposition fails to recognize, however, is that critical thinking prevents error by subjecting all ideas to scrutiny.  Critical thinking isn't about producing an idea. It's about finding the right idea. He thinks critical thinking is like "inventing" or "giving birth to" ideas-- no. It's a process whereby an idea's validity is tested.

IMO (assuming that I have correctly interpreted SH's statement) it is a bad analogy.

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(December 24, 2017 at 9:14 pm)Starhunter Wrote: You have never been allowed to experience anything that you could not handle...

Where do Christians get this idea? Anyone who has suffered a traumatic event which caused them to commit suicide was "given more than they could handle" by my definition. It happens, too.

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/co-...uicide.asp

Quote:A body of research indicates that there is a correlation between many types of trauma and suicidal behaviors. For example, there is evidence that traumatic events such as childhood abuse may increase a person's suicide risk (4,5). A history of military sexual trauma (MST) also increases the risk for suicide and intentional self-harm, suggesting a need to screen for suicide risk in this population (6).

"God" gives people more than they can handle all the time. When Christians claim this, does it come with a footnote? (Christians work better with editing powers, don't cha know.)

"Do not bear false witness [unless you don't like the guy or he has offended you]"

"Give away all your wealth [unless you like having your wealth around]"

"Judge not [if it is September 26th 1964 at 3:29 PM and you're standing in the shade, otherwise judge all you want]"

Something like that...thanks anyway. 
What you are saying is that critical thinking is a way of defining what already is discovered and agreed on, in other words it is trying to state the obvious, which is fine with me, but when it tries to define the mysteries of the universe... I am thinking about the guessing that's going on in what they would like to call science. Anyway, that's another page, or book rather, to write about.

As for suffering, the world is not short of suffering by any means, and I have met people whose lives go beyond words... but I have also seen children/people in the worst cases rise above their situation, though it may have taken them a lifetime. I know of a situation where every child under the same conditions, handled it differently, though given the same opportunities as adults to deal with their past. It is interesting that the weakest shild, became the strongest, by not rejecting Jesus Christ, and that person became instrumental in helping the sibllings, psychologically and spiritually. After many years, the entire family began to heal, from anxieties and habits of transferring unresolved pain.

All had contemplated suicide for most of their lives. But the most damaged child, figured out that it is better to surrender to Christ than to death. And that Jesus is the perfect example of a life of selflessness, of self sacrifice for others. Sinners balk at this, becaue they are self centered. It takes real love to surrender to God, but it only takes a hasty plan to kill oneself.

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(December 25, 2017 at 2:15 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(December 24, 2017 at 6:47 pm)Cyberman Wrote: I'm so gay...

I love ...

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My bold...

You are not who you pose to be on this forum, and that you play games with people's minds on different forums, as a different character, as I have always suspected. You like to take the extremes in any situation and flaunt them, in order to create what your superior (control) knows as the Hegelian dialectic. 
What you are doing now, will be better understood and exposed to the world in general in the near future, and the authorities will take the right action against the likes of you, but at the moment you are enjoying the life of an abuser.

(December 25, 2017 at 3:50 pm)Starhunter Wrote:

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(December 25, 2017 at 10:50 am)Mermaid Wrote: Yyyyeah. That's not gonna hold water with me. 

You have a nice holiday, too though.

Why, may I ask?

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Er. Cause I am an atheist. I came to this conclusion some time ago after a lot of thought about it. Your telling me "God is great!" isn't going to convince me that God exists. It's just not my thing. If it's yours great! I believe in science and the natural world. I do not believe in God, I think it's a preposterous belief.

(December 25, 2017 at 3:50 pm)Starhunter Wrote: What you are saying is that critical thinking is a way of defining what already is discovered and agreed on, in other words it is trying to state m the obvious...

No, that's not how I define critical thinking. Consider Galileo-- when he was trying to prove the sun-centered model of the universe. It was in no way agreed upon at the time-- the prevalent opinion was that the Earth was at the center of the universe. Keep in mind, Galileo did not come up with the heliocentric model himself; that honor falls upon Copernicus.

Galileo used a ton of critical thinking to demonstrate that the heliocentric model was the most plausible. He made observations of astronomical objects (like Jupiter and its moons) which he used to make his case that the old earth-centered model was incorrect. It's one thing to use a telescope to look at celestial objects-- it's quite another to take a whole bunch of observations, think about the implications of what is observed, and use that thought process to prove that the sun is in the center of the solar system.

In third grade, we are shown a model of the solar system in school, and we are plainly told how all the planets are situated. It's easy to forget how "in the dark" folks like Galileo were and how much effort it took just to figure out all the stuff that he did.

So-- no-- critical thinking is not a way of defining what is already discovered and agreed on. Nor is it exclusively coming up with brand new ideas. It is a method of determining the viability of competing models (as per Galileo, who did not invent the Copernican model but rather proved it). Oftentimes, one who is the actual discoverer of a new idea/model will also prove it as well-- but the "coming up with" is not essential to the process of determining plausibility. The ability to critically examine competing ideas, that's where the gold is.

(December 25, 2017 at 3:50 pm)Starhunter Wrote: ...which is fine with me, but when it tries to define the mysteries of the universe it better shut up because the conclusions are pure garbage, and I am thinking about the guessing that's going on in what they would like to call science. Anyway, that's another page, or book rather, to write about.

Go back to my Galileo example. Galileo was "trying to define the mysteries of the universe" with his critical thinking. And guess what? He did a damn fine job. 

You forget that how the solar system was arranged was a mystery to people in Galileo's time. Just like other things are a mystery today. Critical thinking has solved many, many mysteries. And it will continue to solve more. It's not a perfect process, but it has given us antibiotics, computers, satellites, and many other things we take for granted.

Starhunter Wrote:All had contemplated suicide for most of their lives. But the most damaged child, figured out that it is better to surrender to Christ than to death.

I would have to agree that "surrender to a supernatural being" is better than suicide in most cases. (I have to draw the line at, say, joining a murderous cult, but generally I agree with you.) But I think you are creating a false dichotomy. Even if faith is a viable way to emerge whole on the other side of a hardship, it's not the only way. And who is to say it's the best way? Even if it is effective, it's got a whole lot of baggage chained to it.

Furthermore, I don't know if you are drawing from anecdotal evidence or not, but there is no way for any of us to know what the "most damaged child is" or if she has survived to tell her story. You may read an article about someone who has survived the unfathomable, but think about how many articles weren't written, because the victim didn't survive. But even if you just look at what has been documented-- it's enough to make you cry. Families where the stepfather brutally rapes a daughter. The daughter goes to the mother for help and is shunned for accusing the stepfather. This stuff has happened and continues to happen. This child not only had to continue to endure the regular abuses of her stepparent, but also the rejection of her own mother. Assuming that a child in that predicament commits suicide... IMO... she was given more than she could handle. 

Sure, faith might get a person through difficulties like that. And if it does, then faith has some value. I don't deny this. But I don't assume that faith is a magic pill to resolve all such situations. In fact, I'd rather rely on outreach programs and education of school guidance counselors, etc, than put any stock in faith whose powers you have grossly overstated.