Quote:Now that word salad sounds impressive with a lot of $20 words but there's no way in hell nitwits in the 6th Century used words that were not invented until the 14th & 16th Centuries.

I don't know what word you are referring to, Wyrd.  "Anathema" itself is a Greek word.  Somehow I get the impression that you don't think language existed before English?

(December 28, 2017 at 10:54 am)Jehanne Wrote: No classical scholar believes the story in Luke

Support?

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(December 28, 2017 at 10:56 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Their homes, not the village where they were born if they were born somewhere else. They were required to go to where they lived.

Do you know that Joseph had settled in Nazareth at that point?

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(December 28, 2017 at 11:01 am)Grandizer Wrote: Who cares about the census? 

Atheists mostly. For some reason it's not enough to simply not believe.

(December 28, 2017 at 11:43 am)alpha male Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 10:54 am)Jehanne Wrote: No classical scholar believes the story in Luke

Support?

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Quote:There are major difficulties in accepting Luke's account: the census in fact took place in 6 AD, ten years after Herod's death in 4 BC; there was no single census of the entire empire under Augustus; no Roman census required people to travel from their own homes to those of distant ancestors; and the census of Judea would not have affected Joseph and his family, living in Galilee; most scholars have therefore concluded that the author of Luke's gospel made an error.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius

Allert, Craig D. (2007). A High View of Scripture?. Baker Books. ISBN 9780801027789.
Blomberg, C.E. (1995). "Quirinius". In Bromiley, Geoffrey W. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. 4. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802837844.
Brown, R.E. (1978). An Adult Christ at Christmas: Essays on the Three Biblical Christmas Stories. Liturgical Press. ISBN 9780814609972.
Burkett, Delbert (2002). An introduction to the New Testament and the origins of Christianity. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-00720-7.
Charlesworth, James H. (2008). The Historical Jesus: An Essential Guide. Abingdon Press. ISBN 9781426724756.
Edwards, James R. (2015). The Gospel of Luke. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802837356.
Freeman, Charles (2009). A New History of Early Christianity. Yale University Press. ISBN 9780300125818.
Green, Joel (1997). The Gospel of Luke. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802823151.
Gruen, Erich S. (1996). "The Expansion of the Empire Under Augustus". In Bowman, Alan K.; Champlin, Edward; Lintott, Andrew. The Cambridge Ancient History. 10. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521264303.
Maisch, Ingrid; Vogle, Anton (1975). "Jesus Christ". In Rahner, Karl. Encyclopedia of Theology. A&C Black. ISBN 9780860120063.
Merz, Annette (2015). "The Quest for the Historical Jesus". In Van Kooten, George H.; Barthel, Peter. The Star of Bethlehem and the Magi: Interdisciplinary Perspectives from Experts on the Ancient Near East, the Greco-Roman World, and Modern Astronomy. BRILL. ISBN 9789004308473.
Millar, Fergus (1993). The Roman Near East, 31 B.C.-A.D. 337. Harvard University Press. ISBN 9780674778863.
Novak, Ralph Martin (2001). Christianity and the Roman Empire: background texts. Continuum International. ISBN 9780567018403.
Perkins, Pheme (2009). Introduction to the Synoptic Gospels. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802865533.
Sanders, E.P. (1995). The Historical Figure of Jesus. Penguin UK. ISBN 9780141928227.
Theissen, Gerd; Merz, Annette (1998). The historical Jesus: a comprehensive guide. Eerdmans.
Vermes, Geza (2010). Jesus: Nativity - Passion - Resurrection. Penguin UK. ISBN 9780141957449.
Géza Vermes (2 November 2006). The Nativity: History and Legend. Penguin Books Limited. ISBN 978-0-14-191261-5.

(December 28, 2017 at 11:57 am)Jehanne Wrote:

Quote:There are major difficulties in accepting Luke's account: the census in fact took place in 6 AD, ten years after Herod's death in 4 BC; there was no single census of the entire empire under Augustus; no Roman census required people to travel from their own homes to those of distant ancestors; and the census of Judea would not have affected Joseph and his family, living in Galilee; most scholars have therefore concluded that the author of Luke's gospel made an error.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius

Allert, Craig D. (2007). A High View of Scripture?. Baker Books. ISBN 9780801027789.
Blomberg, C.E. (1995). "Quirinius". In Bromiley, Geoffrey W. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. 4. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802837844.
Brown, R.E. (1978). An Adult Christ at Christmas: Essays on the Three Biblical Christmas Stories. Liturgical Press. ISBN 9780814609972.
Burkett, Delbert (2002). An introduction to the New Testament and the origins of Christianity. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-00720-7.
Charlesworth, James H. (2008). The Historical Jesus: An Essential Guide. Abingdon Press. ISBN 9781426724756.
Edwards, James R. (2015). The Gospel of Luke. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802837356.
Freeman, Charles (2009). A New History of Early Christianity. Yale University Press. ISBN 9780300125818.
Green, Joel (1997). The Gospel of Luke. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802823151.
Gruen, Erich S. (1996). "The Expansion of the Empire Under Augustus". In Bowman, Alan K.; Champlin, Edward; Lintott, Andrew. The Cambridge Ancient History. 10. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521264303.
Maisch, Ingrid; Vogle, Anton (1975). "Jesus Christ". In Rahner, Karl. Encyclopedia of Theology. A&C Black. ISBN 9780860120063.
Merz, Annette (2015). "The Quest for the Historical Jesus". In Van Kooten, George H.; Barthel, Peter. The Star of Bethlehem and the Magi: Interdisciplinary Perspectives from Experts on the Ancient Near East, the Greco-Roman World, and Modern Astronomy. BRILL. ISBN 9789004308473.
Millar, Fergus (1993). The Roman Near East, 31 B.C.-A.D. 337. Harvard University Press. ISBN 9780674778863.
Novak, Ralph Martin (2001). Christianity and the Roman Empire: background texts. Continuum International. ISBN 9780567018403.
Perkins, Pheme (2009). Introduction to the Synoptic Gospels. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802865533.
Sanders, E.P. (1995). The Historical Figure of Jesus. Penguin UK. ISBN 9780141928227.
Theissen, Gerd; Merz, Annette (1998). The historical Jesus: a comprehensive guide. Eerdmans.
Vermes, Geza (2010). Jesus: Nativity - Passion - Resurrection. Penguin UK. ISBN 9780141957449.
Géza Vermes (2 November 2006). The Nativity: History and Legend. Penguin Books Limited. ISBN 978-0-14-191261-5.

You said "no," while this says "most." So again, do you have support for your claim?

I can't find a single classical Roman scholar who believes in it; prove me wrong, and I'll change my "none" to just "most".  It's kind of like WLC being able to find a single living physicist who supports his positions!  In any case, "most" is, for all practical purposes, equivalent to "none".

(December 28, 2017 at 12:07 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I can't find a single classical Roman scholar who believes in it; prove me wrong, and I'll change my "none" to just "most".  It's kind of like WLC being able to find a single living physicist who supports his positions!  In any case, "most" is, for all practical purposes, equivalent to "none".

Since you're fond of wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Quote:Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false.

(December 28, 2017 at 12:11 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 12:07 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I can't find a single classical Roman scholar who believes in it; prove me wrong, and I'll change my "none" to just "most".  It's kind of like WLC being able to find a single living physicist who supports his positions!  In any case, "most" is, for all practical purposes, equivalent to "none".

Since you're fond of wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Quote:Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false.

Dodge.

(December 28, 2017 at 12:18 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Dodge.

How is it a dodge to point out that jehanne is clearly using a logical fallacy?

Quote:Fair enough. So, let's note that a record of a Roman census in Egypt ~100 AD has been found which required people to go to their homes to register:

Oh, the Egypt canard.

A- You do understand that Egypt represented a special case in the entire Roman Imperial System, right?  Having been personally conquered by Octavius the entire province was considered the personal estate of the emperor.  Further, there is evidence of a Roman census taking there back as far as 33-34 AD and the speculation is that the Romans inherited the Ptolemaic census system.  Egypt, uniquely, had been taking a census of one sort or another since the Middle Kingdom which far predates your godboy.

Quote:Paul Cartledge,Peter Garnsey,Erich S. Gruen Hellenistic Constructs: Essays in Culture, History, and Historiography (footnoted in Wiki.... it does not seem to be online.

B- In the Res Gestae Divi Augustus he specifically lists the lustra he has taken.  These were counts of Roman citizens (only).

Quote:8. When I was consul the fifth time (29 B.C.E.), I increased the number of patricians by order of the people and senate. I read the roll of the senate three times, and in my sixth consulate (28 B.C.E.) I made a census of the people with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague. I conducted a lustrum, after a forty-one year gap, in which lustrum were counted 4,063,000 heads of Roman citizens. Then again, with consular imperium I conducted a lustrum alone when Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius were consuls (8 B.C.E.), in which lustrum were counted 4,233,000 heads of Roman citizens. And the third time, with consular imperium, I conducted a lustrum with my son Tiberius Caesar as colleague, when Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Appuleius were consuls (14 A.C.E.), in which lustrum were counted 4,937,000 of the heads of Roman citizens. By new laws passed with my sponsorship, I restored many traditions of the ancestors, which were falling into disuse in our age, and myself I handed on precedents of many things to be imitated in later generations.



http://classics.mit.edu/Augustus/deeds.html

C- When Vespasian and Titus conducted a lustrum in 73-74 it was still a count of Roman citizens.... in the aftermath of the Civil War useful information but not necessarily about taxation.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ui4lDw...20&f=false

D- Once again I have to remind you of your own fairy tales.  The author of "luke" (whoever it was) seems to have forgotten that Galilee at the alleged time of the nativity was under the rule of the client-king Herod Antipas.  Antipas paid tribute to Rome based on treaty obligations not direct taxation from Rome.  The notion that someone could be ordered to go from his home in the non-existent city of Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judaea which was then part of the newly-created Prefecture of Judaea is ludicrous.  The notion that the entire fucking world could be so ordered to journey to their home towns is preposterous!  Only some jackass who thinks these gospel stories are real could fall for it!


Now we do have some indications of "provincial" census-taking at scattered times, not the least of which was the order for Quirinius to undertake an accounting of Judaea upon its addition to the Province of Syria.  But a world-wide census?  Absurd.

(December 28, 2017 at 12:26 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 12:18 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Dodge.

How is it a dodge to point out that jehanne is clearly using a logical fallacy?

Continued dodge.