Teacher. The dog really are my homework!




Ok, the first 7 times were lies, but this time it's true I tell ya!

According to the second law of thermodynamics the entropy in a system (the universe) increases over time. Life is a form of decreased entropy. Therefore some being had to creat life which is either not bound to time or not bound by the laws of physics. This being is God.

Which god?

Also, of what is a 'god' composed and please demonstrate how one of these creates life.

(December 27, 2017 at 6:48 pm)ShirkahnW Wrote: According to the second law of thermodynamics the entropy in a system (the universe) increases over time. Life is a form of decreased entropy. Therefore some being had to creat life which is either not bound to time or not bound by the laws of physics. This being is God.

Bolding mine. This is not true. Life is an ordering of matter on a local scale. In the process of life making life, the net entropy of the universe increases more. That's not the same thing. If you study enough physics, you will learn that. Until you study enough physics to know that, don't come in here telling us that life is a form of decreased entropy, since, as mentioned, life actually increases entropy.

God is the most intuitive explanation for the existence of the universe.

Theist conclusion: God has to exist.

Atheist: Most intuitive? All the more reason to be skeptical of Gods existence.

(December 27, 2017 at 11:00 pm)Fireball Wrote:

(December 27, 2017 at 6:48 pm)ShirkahnW Wrote: According to the second law of thermodynamics the entropy in a system (the universe) increases over time. Life is a form of decreased entropy. Therefore some being had to creat life which is either not bound to time or not bound by the laws of physics. This being is God.

Bolding mine. This is not true. Life is an ordering of matter on a local scale. In the process of life making life, the net entropy of the universe increases more. That's not the same thing. If you study enough physics, you will learn that. Until you study enough physics to know that, don't come in here telling us that life is a form of decreased entropy, since, as mentioned, life actually increases entropy.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Life increases entropy of course. But at the moment of the creation of life, the entropy decreased

Locally, at the cost of increasing entropy somewhere else. Such as the big hydrogen/helium reactor in the sky.

Also, which god are we talking about? How did it do these things?

(December 27, 2017 at 11:00 pm)Fireball Wrote: Life is an ordering of matter on a local scale. In the process of life making life, the net entropy of the universe increases more.

(December 28, 2017 at 7:52 am)Cyberman Wrote: Locally, at the cost of increasing entropy somewhere else. Such as the big hydrogen/helium reactor in the sky.

Hi y'all!  I was wondering if you could explain more about life increasing entropy.  Cyberman, your statement could be interpreted that the decrease in entropy is balanced by an increase somewhere else while Fireball seems to be claiming that life increases the entropy of the whole universe.  Which is right?

Does life accelerate the decay of the universe?  If so, what is the mechanism for that?

Or does the organization that is life come at the balancing cost of disorganization?  If so, why is that necessary?  It's hard for me to picture that, because I organized some words on a screen, some aspect of the universe suddenly and obediently fell apart (apologies to any civilizations suffering abrupt bridge collapses lol).  And I know from regular experience that cleaning the house doesn't make it dirtier.  Order creating disorder isn't very intuitive to me.

Clarity on this subject is appreciated!

Also...

Which came first; life or the entropy reduction?  Life seems to be a product of organization, so I'd guess that order came first but then how does a collection of dumb stuff, that is supposed to obey the laws of thermodynamics, manage to organize itself to produce life?  Seems like circular causation because if the mindless stuff did manage to organize, then it would already be evidence of life.

See:

To Lovelock, the basic question was “What is life, and how should it be recognized?” When speaking about this issue with some of his colleagues at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, he was asked what he would do to look for life on Mars. To this, Lovelock replied "I’d look for an entropy reduction, since this must be a general characteristic of life."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_an...ve_entropy

Quote:Also, which god are we talking about? How did it do these things?

How do we issue the commands to tell our fingers to type?  Is it the result of a kind of code programmed by happenstance into the universe that is mindlessly followed, like a machine, that generates the decisions we think we make?  If so, then why are we needed to be conscious just to helplessly watch the show?  And how does mindless code-following generate consciousness?  What evolutionary advantage would conscious code-following have over the robotic code-followers?  What use would consciousness have if decisions were predetermined?  Why would something evolve with so much refinement, yet have no interaction with reality?

Alternatively, do we have free will?  What is that?  Where did it come from, what is it made of, and how does it work?

If we can't even know how we do things, is it reasonable to ask how a god-like thing operates?

Maybe, at best, the existence of a god can be inferred... like dark matter.

Although dark matter has not been directly observed, its existence and properties are inferred from its gravitational effects  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

Then again, we've been inferring for millennia in lieu of better explanations at the time.

(December 30, 2017 at 11:43 am)Agnosty Wrote:

(December 27, 2017 at 11:00 pm)Fireball Wrote: Life is an ordering of matter on a local scale. In the process of life making life, the net entropy of the universe increases more.

(December 28, 2017 at 7:52 am)Cyberman Wrote: Locally, at the cost of increasing entropy somewhere else. Such as the big hydrogen/helium reactor in the sky.

Hi y'all!  I was wondering if you could explain more about life increasing entropy.  Cyberman, your statement could be interpreted that the decrease in entropy is balanced by an increase somewhere else while Fireball seems to be claiming that life increases the entropy of the whole universe.  Which is right?

The two statements are not in conflict. Entropy can and does decrease on a local scale, at the expense of an overall increase in the total entropy in the closed system of the Universe. Our local star system is not a closed system; our sun provides more than enough energy for life to arise and flourish, as it were combatting entropy, at the cost of depleting its own energy. But every action lifeforms take, even thinking, dissipates into heat energy and, on a relatively microscopic level, furthers the heat death of the Universe. Remember though that we're talking quite astonishingly tiny effects here, in the grand scope of things. Remember also that I am not an astrophysicist; everything I say on the subject is gleaned from what I've picked up over the years and I expect, even encourage, others more learned in the field to eviscerate my words. That's how we learn.

(December 30, 2017 at 11:43 am)Agnosty Wrote: Does life accelerate the decay of the universe?  If so, what is the mechanism for that?

Or does the organization that is life come at the balancing cost of disorganization?  If so, why is that necessary?  It's hard for me to picture that, because I organized some words on a screen, some aspect of the universe suddenly and obediently fell apart (apologies to any civilizations suffering abrupt bridge collapses lol).  And I know from regular experience that cleaning the house doesn't make it dirtier.  Order creating disorder isn't very intuitive to me.

The Earth going around the Sun isn't very intuitive either. Intuition is a great way to be wrong and still remain blissful about it.

Reductio ad absurdum doesn't get you very far, either.

(December 30, 2017 at 11:43 am)Agnosty Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 7:52 am)Cyberman Wrote: Also, which god are we talking about? How did it do these things?

How do we issue the commands to tell our fingers to type?  Is it the result of a kind of code programmed by happenstance into the universe that is mindlessly followed, like a machine, that generates the decisions we think we make?  If so, then why are we needed to be conscious just to helplessly watch the show?  And how does mindless code-following generate consciousness?  What evolutionary advantage would conscious code-following have over the robotic code-followers?  What use would consciousness have if decisions were predetermined?  Why would something evolve with so much refinement, yet have no interaction with reality?

Alternatively, do we have free will?  What is that?  Where did it come from, what is it made of, and how does it work?

Neither does grafting a non sequitur onto a red herring. We're not talking about autonomic control of our bodies, we were discussing gods. If you want to suggest that the two things are similar, be my guest. Just bear in mind that you then forfeit all option to claim a supernatural god.

(December 30, 2017 at 11:43 am)Agnosty Wrote: If we can't even know how we do things, is it reasonable to ask how a god-like thing operates?

It's more than reasonable - it's required, since you are positing the existence of such an entity operating in such a way. Yours is the onus to support the assertion.

(December 30, 2017 at 11:43 am)Agnosty Wrote: Maybe, at best, the existence of a god can be inferred... like dark matter.

Maybe. How do you suggest we set about validating that inference?

(December 30, 2017 at 11:43 am)Agnosty Wrote: Then again, we've been inferring for millennia in lieu of better explanations at the time.

I suspect you don't understand the significance of inference in a scientific context. Hint: it doesn't mean making stuff up and leaving it at that.