(January 5, 2018 at 1:15 pm)Shell B Wrote: Maybe let's not do this in areas where there isn't rampant racism. In the split second it takes for someone to shoot you, you don't have time to call number 10 and wait for him to show up.

As much as I like to crack jokes...I don't actually think it's just the solution to rampant racism.  It's also the solution to compulsively frightened police officers, alleged "accidental discharges",  and plain old honest mistakes. 

The cops in the UK seem to have time to call armed response.

Quote:Tasers aren't always effective, either. To be clear, I want lots and lots of regulation on firearms. I just want them to be logical. Police officers need to do better. They need better screening, better training, better equipment, etc. They need to make sure there are at least two cops in every patrol car, since it's often lone cops that panic and do something stupid. I know it isn't always, but addressing some problems is better than none.

For sure.  I would actually pair the suggestion of taking the guns away from most of them with a requirement of heavy assault armor for all of them (codpeices, underarm guards, collars and skirts - the whole bit).  Cops, if we're looking at safely providing the intended service to all parties (including the providers and the people who they have to interact with) in a very dangerous environment... need to be heavily armored...but they don't need to be heavily armed.  

I actually empathize, greatly, even with the cops who do fucked up shit and end up in one of Mins threads.  They've been set up to fail.

(January 5, 2018 at 1:24 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(January 5, 2018 at 1:16 pm)pool the matey Wrote: I'm of the opinion that no matter how many culprits get away no innocent man should be punished. Same way with cops, I'd rather have 5 dead cops and 1 innocent person than 5 dead people and 1 "innocent" cop

Bigoted much?

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How many of you have been on police ride-a-longs? Know where the police review board meets? Have spent any time at all with a police officer?

And yes, some of you will lie about the above.

I don't understand. Why would anyone lie about that?

Yes, my ex father-in-law of 10 years (before that one of my best friend's father since I was about 13) was a police officer. I've spend a ton of time with him and other police officers. I also knew a few army cops when we lived off post at Fort Lewis. Truth be told, he might have been the kind of cop that gives people the opinion that cops are gruff and racist. Still, I don't believe that's the norm, and I think he had as much right to get home safe to his family as anyone else. He wasn't going renegade and shooting people.

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Compulsively frightened cops shouldn't be cops.

(January 5, 2018 at 1:24 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: How many of you have been on police ride-a-longs?

Does it count if you're in the back seat? 

Quote:Know where the police review board meets?

No clue.

Quote:Have spent any time at all with a police officer?

Plenty, lol.  My best buddies dad was a cop, he threw cop parties.  Great guy.  Great parties.

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(January 5, 2018 at 1:35 pm)Shell B Wrote:

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Compulsively frightened cops shouldn't be cops.

IKR?  -and yet......

(January 5, 2018 at 1:35 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(January 5, 2018 at 1:24 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Bigoted much?

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How many of you have been on police ride-a-longs? Know where the police review board meets? Have spent any time at all with a police officer?

And yes, some of you will lie about the above.

I don't understand. Why would anyone lie about that?

Yes, my ex father-in-law of 10 years (before that one of my best friend's father since I was about 13) was a police officer. I've spend a ton of time with him and other police officers. I also knew a few army cops when we lived off post at Fort Lewis. Truth be told, he might have been the kind of cop that gives people the opinion that cops are gruff and racist. Still, I don't believe that's the norm, and I think he had as much right to get home safe to his family as anyone else. He wasn't going renegade and shooting people.

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Compulsively frightened cops shouldn't be cops.

Because it shows that people are actively taking part in the oversight of the police, instead of flapping their gums on the Internet.

(January 5, 2018 at 1:51 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Because it shows that people are actively taking part in the oversight of the police, instead of flapping their gums on the Internet.

Yeah, I've just had acquaintances and family who were cops. I didn't actively participate in any oversight. I have popped into our local police station on occasion. Once, I wanted to see if there was something Tibs and I could do about some information we had about an online occurrence. Unfortunately, there was nothing we could do, but they were kind and helpful. We also popped in with some coffee and donuts when there were a lot of police shootings going on. We have a tight-knit community. We want them to know we have their backs. None of that is oversight, though. Around here, they're mostly good guys who have to deal with the opioid crisis.

OFC they are, Sama..with varying results and rates of success.  There are plenty of people working law enforcement in good faith and trying to make it better.  The fact that their personal abilities are not a reliable indicator of success strongly suggests that effective change will need to be institutional. 

Take the "I was scared" justification.  That's ill thought out, but within the framework of that being a valid justification for shooting some random schmuck..no amount of oversight can fix the problem of habitually frightened police officers (taking their claims at face value).  Oversight is doing the best it can, in some places, within the boundaries of the institution - but those boundaries are not always well constructed. Yes, obviously, we have the cops backs (as a society) -even the habitually frightened ones.....just look at our laws and conviction rates. We need to engineer a process where we don't -have- to have those cops backs because they aren't shooting people, is all.

(January 5, 2018 at 1:57 pm)Khemikal Wrote: OFC they are, Sama..with varying results and rates of success.  There are plenty of people working law enforcement in good faith and trying to make it better.  The fact that their personal abilities are not a reliable indicator of success strongly suggests that effective change will need to be institutional. 

Take the "I was scared" justification.  That's ill thought out, but within the framework of that being a valid justification for shooting some random schmuck..no amount of oversight can fix the problem of habitually frightened police officers (taking their claims at face value).  Oversight is doing the best it can, in some places, within the boundaries of the institution - but those boundaries are not always well constructed.

And the ranks are woefully thin. If, say, 10% of the public let the Police Department know that they were actively interested in what was happening IN THEIR OWN TOWN, thing will most probably change. A lack of accountability comes from a lack of oversight. 

The people who blather on the 'net without actually doing something about the problem are actually making things worse. Good people see the shit that is flung at ALL cops and think, "I'll do something else rather than be lumped."

(January 5, 2018 at 2:00 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: And the ranks are woefully thin. If, say, 10% of the public let the Police Department know that they were actively interested in what was happening IN THEIR OWN TOWN, thing will most probably change. A lack of accountability comes from a lack of oversight.

There's no world in which I'm going to legitimitely entertain the notion that the problem in question is ultimately the fault of a lack of interest by the random citizen. Cops shooting people doesn't come from people not being actively interested, it's just aided and abetted by it.  

Even conceptually, this is a failure. The problem can be reduced or even eliminated without the random citizen ever being involved or knowing how it's done..so even if it is somehow meaningfully a product of a lack of interest, and we have that lack of interest, we still have to do something about it..because we're not getting interested (according to you, I guess)..and we -can- do something about it until that magical day that everyone shows up for every cop shop meeting.

Quote:The people who blather on the 'net without actually doing something about the problem are actually making things worse. Good people see the shit that is flung at ALL cops and think, "I'll do something else rather than be lumped."

Thanks for telling me what good people do, I'm always fuzzy on that.

(January 5, 2018 at 2:03 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(January 5, 2018 at 2:00 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: And the ranks are woefully thin. If, say, 10% of the public let the Police Department know that they were actively interested in what was happening IN THEIR OWN TOWN, thing will most probably change. A lack of accountability comes from a lack of oversight.

There's no world in which I'm going to entertain the notion that the problem in question is ultimately the fault of a lack of interest by the random citizen. Cops shooting people doesn't come from people not being actively interested, it's just aided and abetted by it.  It can also be reduced or even eliminated without the random citizen ever being involved or knowing how it's done.

Quote:The people who blather on the 'net without actually doing something about the problem are actually making things worse. Good people see the shit that is flung at ALL cops and think, "I'll do something else rather than be lumped."

Thanks for telling me what good people do, I'm always fuzzy on that.

Good for you. If you find a person that says that kick their ass for me. 

Okay, wonderful..then what was it you were saying..again? That if people were actively interested things would change?

They are, you're spitting in the face of reality thinking that active interest is limited to ride-alongs, local oversight committees, or hanging out with cops.

If they aren't..okay, then -now what-. Still a problem, still have to do something.