I was hoping someone would write about this. Basically his career is over. Totally sucks for him.

Obviously I don't agree morally with casual sex, and he obviously pressured her, which I find to be a shitty thing for a guy to do. My first boyfriend pulled that type of shit on me, so it makes me angry on a personal level.

But is he guilty of sexual assault?? No. Not at all. Not even a little bit. And now he's being seen as and labeled as one of the worst things for a man: sexual pretator. So unfair.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:14 am)Shell B Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 10:50 am)wallym Wrote: Being a strong confident assertive woman is great.  But I don't know if the consequences of not being one should be dudes getting to stick whatever they want wherever they want.

It's definitely a status quo that seems like guys came up with.

No, that shouldn’t be the consequence and isn’t what happened.

You don't think so?  Seems like she wasn't into some of the weird shit he was doing, but because she didn't assert herself, she did some stuff she didn't want to do.

I'm of the opinion the 'consent checklist' is a bit dopey.  At the same time, if you've modeled your mating style after a bangbros video, there has to be some sort of headsup to the lady that you're going to try and treat her like a fuck toy.

Intuitively, on a first date, when you know you don't know shit about the person you're with, to just jump right into some stuff that you know a lot of people aren't going to be into isn't rape, but it's a little rape-y.

Well, no. The only penetration that happened, other than the weird mouth fingers thing, which she allowed, was a blow job that she willingly gave. He didn’t just put anything anywhere. Yeah, he’s a bad lay and an inconsiderate ass by the account, but he’s not just sticking his dick in things without permission. He’s trying to get permission in a gross way, but still.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:20 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(January 15, 2018 at 9:18 pm)chimp3 Wrote: In this public discourse we are having about sexual assault it is important not to infantilize anyone.

I think we do that too much in raising our girls, wanting to shield them from sex.  It does a number on some of them to the point where they can't fully say yes .. or no, it appears.  I really do think we have to look at what messages girls are raised with.

So much yes. I'd like to add to this: I really do think we have to look at what messages boys are raised with.

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(January 16, 2018 at 11:28 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:  Basically his career is over.  


But is he guilty of sexual assault?? No. Not at all. Not even a little bit. And now he's being seen as and labeled as one of the worst things for a man: sexual pretator. So unfair.

I am not sure these things are true.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:26 am)pool the matey Wrote: Seriously, you really think that's an unbiased article? It's obviously favoring that dude and putting that chick in a bad light. And who said "non verbal cues" have to mean "mind reading", that is so bizarre, you can tell someone no with just a look. In fact just look at this

Quote:Dr. Albert Mehrabian, author of Silent Messages, conducted several studies on nonverbal communication. He found that 7% of any message is conveyed through words, 38% through certain vocal elements, and 55% through nonverbal elements (facial expressions, gestures, posture, etc).

and you'll know "nonverbal communication" is a huge part of communication. It will be extremely hard to communicate with no nonverbal communication, and you're really going to tell me an actor of all people is so bad with non verbal communication that he couldn't read the facial expressions and other non verbal signs in that situation? Cmon. I side with that chick on this one.  Guy comes off sketchy.

Edit: Definitely sounds like a sexual predator to me.

She let the guy take her clothes off shortly after getting back to his apartment. What did that non-verbally communicate?

(January 16, 2018 at 10:37 am)polymath257 Wrote: This is why I usually assume someone isn't interested until they make it *very* clear that they are. But, of course, that often comes across as *my* being uninterested, so they never feel good making an advance.

So, what are people supposed to do if they are interested and not sure if the other person is? if they ask, that is seen as pressure, even if they accept a 'no'. And if there is anything like a power difference, that is hugely bad.

We also seem to think that discomfort is the same as not wanting to continue. I know I have sometimes felt uncomfortable *and* still wanted to continue. My discomfort doesn't make the other person an assaulter.

And don't forget teasing: a means of showing attraction, but preserving face if the other person isn't attracted. How often is *that* misinterpreted? Especially when mixed with discomfort but wanting to continue?

But are we really saying there can't be a legitimate attraction between people at different power levels?

So, yes, it would be good if everyone only had sex when they absolutely knew they wanted to and were absolutely sure the other person wants to and everyone has signed legal documents to that effect. But real people do things they don't necessarily feel comfortable with but still want to do. Real people send mixed signals and those mixed signals are misinterpreted by other real people. And, sometimes, people are not sexually compatible and the sex is bad. Sometimes real people are uncomfortable, still want to go ahead, and regret it afterwards.

I don't know what the solution is here. Real people also get assaulted. Real people also are forced into sex they don't want. Real people are also ignored when they say no. I think there is a difference between being forced and being uncomfortable, but still going ahead. But there are situations where it isn't perfectly clear.

So, what do we expect from real people? Perfect communication at all times? Really? perfect knowledge of self at all times? Really? Perfect understanding of signals put off by others? Really?

All I can say is that I will wait until I get a non-mixed signal. But I am married (and consensually non-monogamous), and I am available, but most people would assume I am not, even if they are interested. How is that to be managed?

Perfect no . A concentrated effort yes. As for being uncomfortable and still wanting it . Uncomfortable still means uncomfortable so you should stop.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:43 am)Shell B Wrote: Well, no. The only penetration that happened, other than the weird mouth fingers thing, which she allowed, was a blow job that she willingly gave. He didn’t just put anything anywhere. Yeah, he’s a bad lay and an inconsiderate ass by the account, but he’s not just sticking his dick in things without permission. He’s trying to get permission in a gross way, but still.

It sounded like he was jamming his fingers in her mouth, and then trying to finger her repeatedly.  Not like once, resistance, my bad lets do something else.  

It also seemed like he was trying to get permission by taking advantage of her being a non-assertive person, because he thinks she'll eventually cave.  Not that she'll start wanting to do it, but that she'll relent due to her personality type.  

It read similar to an agressive pan handler.  Where you give them a dollar to make them go away.  Except in this case it was a blowjob.  The dynamic in the interaction doesn't seem correct.

I don't know the solution, but I think the 'You dumb bitch, just say no and leave!" isn't the answer either, because that's just not how everyone is wired.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:52 am)alpha male Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 11:26 am)pool the matey Wrote: Seriously, you really think that's an unbiased article? It's obviously favoring that dude and putting that chick in a bad light. And who said "non verbal cues" have to mean "mind reading", that is so bizarre, you can tell someone no with just a look. In fact just look at this

and you'll know "nonverbal communication" is a huge part of communication. It will be extremely hard to communicate with no nonverbal communication, and you're really going to tell me an actor of all people is so bad with non verbal communication that he couldn't read the facial expressions and other non verbal signs in that situation? Cmon. I side with that chick on this one.  Guy comes off sketchy.

Edit: Definitely sounds like a sexual predator to me.

She let the guy take her clothes off shortly after getting back to his apartment. What did that non-verbally communicate?

Did she consent?

Quote:Well, no. The only penetration that happened, other than the weird mouth fingers thing, which she allowed, was a blow job that she willingly gave. He didn’t just put anything anywhere. Yeah, he’s a bad lay and an inconsiderate ass by the account, but he’s not just sticking his dick in things without permission. He’s trying to get permission in a gross way, but still.

Thou he tried and aggressively kept pressuring her into doing it . After she said she was not comfortable and physically showed disinterest .

(January 16, 2018 at 7:51 am)alpha male Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 12:58 am)J a c k Wrote: What if one of them has awkward sex one day and then the girl or boy they’re with runs off and tells the world that they’re a creep who made them uncomfortable, only for the world to respond by labeling them as predators?

First, I agree with Shell and others that Aziz isn't guilty of assault.

That said, maybe men - for their own protection if nothing else - shouldn't be trying to score on a first date. Or a second.

If a man's been going out with a woman for a month or two and progressing toward sex, it's less likely such charges will be made, and if they are, less likely that they'll stick.

Exactly this^

Waiting to have sex until you at least have a relationship with someone. Imagine such a radical idea.