(January 16, 2018 at 6:01 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 6:00 pm)Shell B Wrote: Grabbing a tit isn't one of the things you do to initiate sex.

But "the claw"...apparently, is. 

(January 16, 2018 at 5:48 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 5:30 pm)wallym Wrote: I did read what you said.  It's that guys should stop if the woman says no.  And if it's uncomfortable, find out what's wrong.

I said more than that. On just what you paraphrased alone, I said more like, "find out specifically what is uncomfortable, whether it's everything or something specific."

Quote:That's not a ton of responsibility.  It's 'don't commit a sex crime against her'.  We're dumb animals, but I think we can shoulder a bit more of the burden.

Don't be ridiculous. That's not what I said.

Quote:You also said creepy guys kissing you is gross, but just a part of being a woman. 

Nope. Not what I said. It's part of being human. It applies to men too. Also, I at the very least implied that if there is any reason for him to think the kiss is unwanted, he shouldn't do it. Sometimes, going in for a kiss is how people, both men and women, initiate mating. Stop trying to make it sound like I'm trying to shrug off assault and normalize unwarranted sexual advances.

Quote:You're definitely coming from a different place when you have a 'just deal with it' attitude for a lot of this stuff that I think is a ways away from what many want to or are capable of just dealing with.

You've got to be shitting me. "Just deal with it?" You're not even defining "it." You're just blasting out one-liners that you think sum up my whole position on sexual interactions, misrepresenting me in grievous ways. Don't worry. You're not the first man (I assumed your gender) to tell me my opinions on womanhood are wrong on this forum while signalling that they're super feminist guardians of the vagina.

(January 16, 2018 at 6:10 pm)wallym Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 5:48 pm)Shell B Wrote: I said more than that. On just what you paraphrased alone, I said more like, "find out specifically what is uncomfortable, whether it's everything or something specific."


Don't be ridiculous. That's not what I said.


Nope. Not what I said. It's part of being human. It applies to men too. Also, I at the very least implied that if there is any reason for him to think the kiss is unwanted, he shouldn't do it. Sometimes, going in for a kiss is how people, both men and women, initiate mating. Stop trying to make it sound like I'm trying to shrug off assault and normalize unwarranted sexual advances.


You've got to be shitting me. "Just deal with it?" You're not even defining "it." You're just blasting out one-liners that you think sum up my whole position on sexual interactions, misrepresenting me in grievous ways. Don't worry. You're not the first man (I assumed your gender) to tell me my opinions on womanhood are wrong on this forum while signalling that they're super feminist guardians of the vagina.

Yeah, for whatever reason, I haven't been able to pin down your takes on the matter.  That's not intentional.  I'm not trying to 'win an argument', I'm just curious what people think, so it's odd there's been such a disconnect.  Usually, I'm better at intuiting people's opinions.  

But as it pertains to this discussion, I've read a lot of other women who've had a very different take than you (or maybe not, since I've been getting it wrong).  So I'm not discounting your opinion, I'm trying to reconcile the two differing opinions together in thinking about how things should be just as a thought exercise. 

As a virtue signalling super feminist vagina guarder, I'm often prone to this sort of thing.

(January 16, 2018 at 5:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 5:46 pm)SaStrike Wrote: Pretty sure if you can give a bj "against your will" you can sign a form "against your will" or "under pressure". Consent forms will change nothing. Shit will still happen.

I agree.

Maybe we should try getting to the root of the problem? Promote sexual morality and respect for self and others. Discourage hook up culture. Discourage porn use. Discourage men and women using each other in bed...

Promote the radical idea that sex is a language of self giving love and commitment.

Now there's a thought.

Quote:We often hear, “Rape is rape, right?” No. A stranger forcing himself on a woman at knife point is different from a man and woman having sex while drunk and having regrets the morning. What is different? When a woman agrees to a date, she does not make a choice to be sexual, but she does make a choice to explore sexual possibilities. The woman makes no such choice with a stranger or an acquaintance. (p. 315)

Quote:If the law tries to legislate our “yeses” and “noes” it will produce “the straitjacket generation” – a generation afraid to flirt, fearful of finding its love notes in a court suit. Date rape legislation will force suitors and courting to give way to courts and suing.
The empowerment of women lies not in the protection of females from date rape, but in resocializing both sexes to share date initiative taking and date paying so that both date rape and date fraud are minimized. We cannot end date rape by calling men “wimps” when they don’t initiate quickly enough, “rapists” when they do it too quickly, and “jerks” when they do it badly. If we increase the performance pressure only for men, we will reinforce men’s need to objectify women – which will lead to more rape. Men will be our rapists as long as men are our initiators.…
Laws on date rape create a climate of date hate. (p.340

Quote:We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. (pp. 314-315)

Quote:While the label “date rape” has helped women articulate the most dramatic aspect of dating from women’s perspective, men have no labels to help them articulate the most traumatic aspects of dating from their perspective. Now, of course, the most traumatic aspect is the possibility of being accused of date rape by a woman to whom he thought he was making love. If men did label the worst aspects of the traditional male role, though, they might label them “date robbery,” “date rejection,” “date responsibility,” “date fraud,” and “date lying.” (p.313, The Myth of Male Power, 1993 hardcover edition)

Quote:If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal “no” is committing date rape, then a woman who says “no” with her verbal language but “yes” with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says “no” is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said “no” to sex even “when they meant yes.” In my own work with over 150,000 men and women – about half of whom are single – the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy’s place “just to talk” but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they’ve recently said something like “That’s far enough for now,” even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his. (P 314)

Quote:It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.”  He might just be trying to become her fantasy. (p. 315)

Quote:Dude, he'd already eaten her out, IIRC. They'd kissed and undressed. The claw may not be pleasant, but it wasn't like, "Hey, I just met you .