(January 17, 2018 at 11:26 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 4:10 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Darrell, it's absolute bull shit and extremely unfair that when I give my opinion, you accuse me of "promoting my agenda." When I objected to this, all you say is to reference my username. So, because I'm a theist, my opinions on this are to be dismissed as merely my "agenda?" I can't just be a person with an opinion like everyone else here because I'm Catholic?

No, it's because your suggestions just happen to coincide with your church's outlook on sexuality. No one is telling you cannot be a real person, so shitcan your martyrdom card and let's get real. When you post an opinion, other people -- and that includes me, I'm a person too -- they have the right to opine as well. And it's my opinion that your opinion is colored by the idea that you need to espouse these beliefs that undergird your outlook as being the be-all of morality. I'm pointing out that no, there's something more basic than that.

Don't like it? Tough shit.

(January 17, 2018 at 4:10 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Fuck that shit. I've always respected you here and considered you one of the people I was on friendly terms with here. We are connected on facebook and have exchanged friendly, personal messages.

...Which is why I don't understand why the past several months you've been a complete ass hole to me on here. I keep brushing stuff off and giving you other chances, refusing to change my positive opinion of you, but now I'm done. Obviously you have an issue with me and are just continuing to be a prick. Good bye.

You know why? Because while I orginally had a positive opinion of you, I've learnt that you're someone who puts a nice veneer on odious positions. If that makes me a prick, that's okay. I've been called worse by better. You don't have to like my opinion. You don't even have to read it. <shrug>

I think you need to reread your signature and really ponder what it means. Look at your post above in response to my simple point and ask yourself if that signature isn't just empty words. Because from here, that's exactly what it looks like.

And with that, I'm done with this derail.

Umm yeah, my opinions on sexual morality are the same as the Catholic Church's. I'm Catholic. Imagine that! Doesn't mean every time I voice my opinion that it's me having an "agenda," whatever the hell that means. Gimmie a fucking break.

But ok, I get it, you no longer like me. Disappointing since I liked you and considered you a forum buddy, but good to know from here on out.

/derailment

(January 17, 2018 at 3:12 am)Khemikal Wrote: Then, ofc, there's the classic notpology.  "I'm sorry she wasn't having as much fun as I was". We'll never know what his private response to her was..but I hope it was good. Imagine trying to watch toy story with your kids after that one......

We do know. It was in the article. He told her he was sorry that he misread the situation. He apologized.

(January 17, 2018 at 5:08 am)Thena323 Wrote: It's amazing to watch people carry on as if they don't remember that "Grace" DID NOT accuse Ansari of RAPE, but of being a pushy, piggy, creep. Perhaps the reason she considered his behavior to be noteworthy, AND the reason why the press saw fit to run the story, was because the guy was clearing misrepresenting himself in purporting to be a staunch ally/supporter of sexual harassment and misconduct awareness.

Like it or not, such blatant hypocrisy on the part of a well-known celebrity is indeed considered newsworthy.
 
Yet and still, we have many folks, including women (many of whom are sexual assault survivors) enthusiastically try 'Grace" in the Most High Court of Shoulda Woulda Coulda and determine her to be not a victim of anything even resembling mistreatment, due to her personal "failings" and "stupidity", but fail remarkably at holding "poor Aziz" to the same rigorous standards and scrutiny of what "should've" been done.

Unfortunately, it's just not uncommon for some survivors of sexual assault to engage in vehement victim-blaming. They've been socialized to do so, along with everyone else. 
Still, it's pretty sickening to watch. Very sad.

No, she specifically accuses him of sexual assault.

As far as I've seen, everyone here agrees that Aziz is a creep and was very much in the wrong to have pressured her and been pushy and inconsiderate. We just don't agree with her accusation of him having assaulted her.

Bottom line: He was wrong to have pressured her. She was wrong to have made this story public in accusation of him having sexually assaulted her.

I assumed that his private conversation on the matter with her was less brief and more substantive, obvs.

(January 17, 2018 at 5:08 am)Thena323 Wrote: It's amazing to watch people carry on as if they don't remember that "Grace" DID NOT accuse Ansari of RAPE, but of being a pushy, piggy, creep. Perhaps the reason she considered his behavior to be noteworthy, AND the reason why the press saw fit to run the story, was because the guy was clearing misrepresenting himself in purporting to be a staunch ally/supporter of sexual harassment and misconduct awareness.

Like it or not, such blatant hypocrisy on the part of a well-known celebrity is indeed considered newsworthy.
 
Yet and still, we have many folks, including women (many of whom are sexual assault survivors) enthusiastically try 'Grace" in the Most High Court of Shoulda Woulda Coulda and determine her to be not a victim of anything even resembling mistreatment, due to her personal "failings" and "stupidity", but fail remarkably at holding "poor Aziz" to the same rigorous standards and scrutiny of what "should've" been done.

Unfortunately, it's just not uncommon for some survivors of sexual assault to engage in vehement victim-blaming. They've been socialized to do so, along with everyone else. 
Still, it's pretty sickening to watch. Very sad.

She did accuse him of sexual assault.

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(January 17, 2018 at 5:28 am)Longhorn Wrote: Lol. I don’t think anyone here called this woman stupid, or Ansari poor. The general consensus on this side of the argument appears to be that he is indeed a creep and that she wasn’t communicative or assertive enough. Argument aside, I find that to be a complete misrepresentation of what people here are saying. Whether they’re women or sexual assault survivors is irrelevant.

And if she didn’t even accuse him of rape, how is this victim blaming done by victims?

Just ignore it. It’s a passive aggressive swing at me. It won’t be logical, just vindictive.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:32 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:  For 30 minutes she endured kissing she did not like, and never spoke a word in protest.   

She did though, and more than once.

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(January 17, 2018 at 7:38 am)alpha male Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 11:15 pm)pool the matey Wrote: @everyone defending this dude, will you have the same attitude if this happened to your daughter?

My daughters wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.

Are you sure about that?

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(January 17, 2018 at 8:51 am)polymath257 Wrote:

(January 16, 2018 at 11:15 pm)pool the matey Wrote: @everyone defending this dude, will you have the same attitude if this happened to your daughter?

Hopefully my daughter would speak up when she doesn't like something.

Hopefully. Will you have that frank discussion with her about it?

(January 17, 2018 at 10:09 am)Khemikal Wrote:

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This doesn't feel right or good..and I don't want it - but...

-I think I'm supposed to.
-that this is me getting lucky.
-that I have to reciprocate now that she's performed a sex act on me.
-that I have to be consistent now that I've consensualy performed one sex act on her.
-that if I'm not consistent and reciprocal people will think I'm a fickle and selfish whore, or maybe just plain old gay.
-that I flat out don't know what to do, panic, and freeze.
-or maybe disgusted resignation to a perceived fate or state of affairs.  Chin up, it'll be over in a minute.

So...those are some of the ways that the illusion of control can evaporate.  Notions of expectation, consistency, reciprocity, negative consequence, and panic. Our biology and behavioral responses are incredibly subversive..in that position.

So, would it be fair to say, that in addition to educating women and young people with regard to the complexity of these various feelings and their implications during sexual encounters, it’s also important to be educating men (or any person in a position of power over others, to stay consistent with your comparison) about them as well?  Not every man in the world is going to be thoughtfully considering all of the above while he is smack dab in the middle of a blow job. Does that mean he’s a perv? 

In other words, do you think it would be fair to say that a little education in the other direction would go a long way in helping some men be more empathetic sexual partners...before we label them creeps and predators?  Or, do you think the person who is initiating the encounter should always intuitively understand all of these non-verbal feelings potentially at play?


Say, look what happens when we engage in open dialogue on a subject instead of letting the conversation get shut down by blanket accusations of victim blaming?  😏

I think it's very important to try to understand everyone's perspective in this kind of situation. Did he listen to her? Why or why not? Did she feel able to fend him off? Why or why not? What are the factors in her passivity? These are the questions I've been asking myself throughout this thread.

It's hard not to have a knee-jerk response to a very emotional topic such as this, as a person who has been in this kind of a situation quite a few times myself.

My bottom line is this:
Yes, he’s a creep.
No, he didn’t assault her.

That’s it.

What can I learn from this? Teach my kids to not be creeps and to never shy away from saying “No” and leaving. Teach them to not be afraid of being disliked for voicing their limits. Teach them to ask when not sure about the other person’s limits. I want to make it very clear that I never meant to shame her. Thing is that it wasn’t assault.

You didn't shame her, Jack. A. She'll never see this, in all likelihood. B. It's not shaming to say a person could have used their words. Shaming or blaming comes from telling someone it was their fault, especially for something entirely unrelated like what they were wearing, which none of us have been saying. Whether you say no or not is relevant in these date situations. (Of course the same wouldn't apply if some rapist just attacked you out of nowhere. The no is implied.)