(January 17, 2018 at 12:33 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, would it be fair to say, that in addition to educating women and young people with regard to the complexity of these various feelings and their implications during sexual encounters, it’s also important to be educating men (or any person in a position of power over others, to stay consistent with your comparison) about them as well?  Not every man in the world is going to be thoughtfully considering all of the above while he is smack dab in the middle of a blow job.

I;d be willing to wager that most men or women in the world aren't -thoughtfully- considering any of those things, the salient bit is that they are,m nevertheless, consuming their thoughts in the moment and producing inexplicable or unrelatable behaviors.  I;m sure we could come up with more, I doubt I've plumbed the depths of response to sexual predation of the criminal -or- just creepy kind.

Quote:Does that mean he’s a perv? 

I don't see why it would..but I also don't see the relevance to the events in consideration.  

Quote:In other words, do you think it would be fair to say that a little education in the other direction would go a long way in helping some men be more empathetic sexual partners...before we label them creeps and predators?  Or, do you think the person who is initiating the encounter should always intuitively understand all of these non-verbal feelings potentially at play?

To be clear, they're being labeled as such for creepy predatory behavior?  It would be preturnatural to pick up every cue..positive or negative.  It stretches my ability to believe a person when they say they could see absolutely -no- signs of a negative, though...when the events are what we have described to us....and in this case..she seems to recall giving repeated verbal cues in addition to the "non-verbal feelings potentially at play" which..in her case..sounded rather more like in effect, than potentially at play. If I had a night like that, with some girl mumbling that we were all the same and trying to halt the penis party every here and there...I'd have been -reaching- for a notarized consent form with her picture ID embossed and signed in her own blood. To me, the writing was on the wall. If he didn't notice it at all, but doesnt deny her version of events..and that's his suspisciously lawyerly claim.....then he might actually be a danger to himself or others as a genuinely oblivious sexual predator.

I think it's more likely that he's a garden variety creep...and at least to some extent he knows that. That he did notice her objections..and he felt that he overcame them in the pursuit fantasy he was obviously playing at.

Quote:Say, look what happens when we engage in open dialogue on a subject instead of letting the conversation get shut down by blanket accusations of victim blaming?  😏

Meh, lol.  

On the reas, though, my open dialogue on this one is that the difference between what ansari did and rape is one of degree, not category - off on a technicality. To see him the treated as the social or normative equivalent of a rapist is entirely unsurprising.  OJ got off too........guy wasn't guilty but we knew he did it, didn't we. He knew he did it too..lol.

(January 17, 2018 at 11:59 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Umm yeah, my opinions on sexual morality are the same as the Catholic Church's. I'm Catholic. Imagine that! Doesn't mean every time I voice my opinion that it's me having an "agenda," whatever the hell that means. Gimmie a fucking break.

I just like truth in labeling ... and you're obviously sensitive to it. I can't say I blame you.

Ad hominem attacks are not arguments, they're ad hominem attacks.

(January 17, 2018 at 12:39 pm)J a c k Wrote: My bottom line is this:
Yes, he’s a creep.
No, he didn’t assault her.

That’s it.

Yep!

Though I would also add that it was wrong of her to make a public accusation of him having sexually assaulted her. That is a serious accusation that can very very likely ruin a person's life. No matter how much of a creep you are, you don't deserve to be accused of sexual assault unless you have sexually assaulted.

(January 17, 2018 at 1:06 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Ad hominem attacks are not arguments, they're ad hominem attacks.

It's a fine line, but yeah. Say your argument is that a person can't be a train operator because said person has a crippling learning disability, it's not a nice thing to have to say, but it's a valid argument. You could argue that a person isn't actually a nice person because they act like an asshole all the time. If the latter is true, it's an argument because it follows the premise. If you just say, "You're wrong about this because you're an asshole," that's an ad hom. Of course, there are a million other examples, but I think it's important sometimes to make clear that unless it's used as part of the argument, it's not an ad hom. It's just an insult. And, it might be insulting, but it might not be an ad hom. Distinctions.

I'm not sure what ad hom you're talking about though. I didn't catch one.

(January 16, 2018 at 11:15 pm)pool the matey Wrote: @everyone defending this dude, will you have the same attitude if this happened to your daughter?

"If" is a big word and there are no guarantees in this world. The only thing I can hope is that I have taught my daughter to be clear about what she does or doesn't want and to not ignore any bad vibes or red flags she gets. She'll be an adult so she will have to make adult decisions. My kid seems pretty mature and pretty focused on her future. Of course, I can't predict the future or what will happen to her in her life, but I can say that I am proud of the job that I have done so far. 

For the record, pool, I don't think anyone here wishes any bad thing to happen to someone else. But this "thing" that happened between this comedian and this woman, wasn't anything more than sex gone wrong and someone changing their mind as a result. It ended there. 

I love how some (not any one person in particular here) have come to the conclusion that every single time some of us don't automatically side with a supposed victim, we are automatically branded as some sort of evil incarnate. It's important to have all the facts from all sides presented. One article written about this incident, from the woman's POV and everyone goes batshit crazy with assumptions.

As a SA victim (and some of you knew that), I can tell you that I am not unsympathetic to this woman. I just don't agree with her claim of sexual assault. That does not in any way, shape or form mean that I am "victim blaming". Why does "blame" have to be assigned at all? I don't like it when assumptions are made about victims blaming other victims. That's a horrid accusation to make and care should be taken with doing that. As for myself, I was merely stating the fact that she was free to go at any time. There is no blame to be had in this situation.

What I see is two grown adults, fully capable of verbalizing what they want and what they don't want. I see a woman who was not being held down against her will nor was she being forced to do things she didn't want to do. I see a man who was more interested in having sex than she was and was more intent on it than her, but she wasn't objecting and the entire time, she was free to stop the activity and leave. She had options that she chose not to exercise until the point  that it became uncomfortable for her and then she left on her own accord.

(January 17, 2018 at 1:06 pm)pool the matey Wrote: Ad hominem attacks are not arguments, they're ad hominem attacks.

I didn't originally make an ad homeneim attack. I pointed out that her recommendations were agenda-driven.

(January 17, 2018 at 1:22 pm)Joods Wrote:  As for myself, I was merely stating the fact that she was free to go at any time. There is no blame to be had in this situation.

What I see is two grown adults, fully capable of verbalizing what they want and what they don't want. I see a woman who was not being held down against her will nor was she being forced to do things she didn't want to do. I see a man who was more interested in having sex than she was and was more intent on it than her, but she wasn't objecting and the entire time, she was free to stop the activity and leave. She had options that she chose not to exercise until the point  that it became uncomfortable for her and then she left on her own accord.

If a I may, joods.  When people read the first sentence...and then the following paragraph, they might come away feeling that you have implicitly engaged in a consideration of desert and culpibility.  Of blame and blame setting.  

I don't think they'd be entirely wrong, and they probably don't think that you were reading the same story they were. I remember my original misapprehension, from not going direct to the source at first...that she was not claiming sexual assault and had -not- vocally objected. Turns out she is..and remembers to have done so, repeatedly. The hypothesis now is some sort of "he didn't notice that he was the lead in a b movie about dating". That she failed to say..."excuse me sir, would you please remove your fingers from my vagina" as he was stuffing them down her throat. That she could not finish her objection..which he verbally acknowledged, because he gave her the shut up creeper kiss when she turned to do so.

That after all of this, she finally does say enough, loudly enough..and in the right way (I guess) for him to suddenly snap attention. The story, however, is certainly not one of suddenly changing her mind and the whole situation changing at that moment..but of enduring a violation for some amount of time for reasons she cannot properly articulate. No, he didn't tie her to a chair with rubber hose...but if he had, we wouldn't be having this conversation, obviously.

Thank you. I wasn't fond of the victim blames victim accusation, either. This woman wasn't the victim of sexual assault, anyway.

Okay, yeah, I can see that too, however, we get chastised when we don't give the "victim" options. She was given options. He also could have decided not to take her home. Like I said, there are more facts to the story that we just don't have right now.