(January 18, 2018 at 3:46 pm)Joods Wrote: QFT. 

And yet, when I have stated pretty much the same thing over several posts, I get called a victim blamer. 

You might be politely expressing the vulgarian's things which cannot be said™.

(January 18, 2018 at 3:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Let me just say that I get that rape and sexual assault are extremely sensitive/traumatic topics for people who have been through it. I don't understand what it feels like to be assaulted, but I do have my own traumatic experience about something else, and there are certain subjects relating to it that are extremely triggering to me... so I get it. I know that feeling.  

To reword what I meant in that comment in case there's any possible unintended offense to any lurker reading, let me further explain my position.

I was basically responding to SaStrike's valid point about consent to explain that I don't think consent should be the end all be all to how we behave, sexually. It's a critical part, obviously, but it shouldn't end there, imho. Because then we get stories like this: where technically there was consent, but someone still came out feeling used and violated and disrespected and taken advantage of. We'll get stories where people consented, but they did so because they were being pressured by the other. We'll get stories where people consented, but were nonetheless treated like sex objects and discarded afterwards. Technically there is consent in these scenarios, and there was no crime, but this doesn't mean it was right.  

What I'm saying is there needs to be a root change in our culture's attitude about sexuality to where consent isn't the ONLY standard to go by. There needs to be a better overall sense of care for people and respect for sexuality in general. My opinion on how to promote this greater sense is what I specifically suggested on the post: Promote respect for self and others, promote sexual morality, promote sex as an act of love/commitment to the other person... discourage hook up culture, discourage porn use, discourage using each other in bed.

That's literally all I meant by that. I wasn't trying to victim blame or discredit consent or anything like that, just adding to it.

The guy was pushy and that was wrong... and that's an obvious problem.

A less obvious problem though, is the fact that while it may be obvious to you me and others who agree with me.... that from the story given she did consent.... to some people it's not so obvious. Some people think that you have to literally spell every action out to the other person and they have to literally spell every action out to you too... all beforehand. Otherwise it's rape. Which is just absolutely nuts.

Oh, and the solution to "Nah don't be silly you don't need to spell everything out for affirmative consent!" problem: "You just have to read their mind!".

...is even nutser.

And the solution to the "Nah don't be silly you don't have to read their mind for affirmative consent!" problem: "You just have to know whether they're feeling enthusiastic or not!"

...is even nutserer.

And the solution to the "Nah don't be silly you don't need to guess whether they're feeling enthusiastic or not in order to know whether they're enthusiastic or not!" problem: "You just have to know that if they're not feeling enthusiastic then they're not into it!"

...is even nutsererer.

Repeat Ad Infinitum. Total begging the question fallacy. The proposed answer to the lack of a solution to the ridiculously slippery and absurd implications of affirmative consent is the complete non-answer of basically use the Force Luke! Just a restatement of the problem that was supposed to be addressed in the first place.

That's why i think consent can't be the end all be all. Legally it can, but morally we should strive to do better.

Yeah, Cath, I don't agree with the idea that hook-ups and porn are bad, but I think your point is well thought out and isn't coming from a place of intellectual dishonesty and blind adherence to your faith. I do agree that people need to be better to each other, which I think is your overall message.

Quote:Affirmative consent isn’t based on the idea that every sexual encounter is a rigid contract between two parties. No one is suggesting that college students need to run through a checklist before unbuttoning each other’s shirts. Instead, it’s more about broadly reorienting about how we approach sex in the first place.

bold mine.

Funny how CL posited nearly the same stance AND left religion out of it, but because it was CL saying it, she had her religion thrown back in her face simply because her view was similar to the view of the catholic church. This only further proves my point that if CL wasn't religious and said what she said, her comments would have been accepted as the norm. 

How fickle others can be when it comes to where similar ideas originate from. 

(January 18, 2018 at 3:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(January 18, 2018 at 3:46 pm)Joods Wrote: QFT. 

And yet, when I have stated pretty much the same thing over several posts, I get called a victim blamer. 

You might be politely expressing the vulgarian's things which cannot be said™.

Alright, alright, we get it. You want to talk about what the things we can't say are and why. Have at it.

---

(January 18, 2018 at 3:59 pm)Joods Wrote:

Quote:Affirmative consent isn’t based on the idea that every sexual encounter is a rigid contract between two parties. No one is suggesting that college students need to run through a checklist before unbuttoning each other’s shirts. Instead, it’s more about broadly reorienting about how we approach sex in the first place.

bold mine.

Funny how CL posited nearly the same stance AND left religion out of it, but because it was CL saying it, she had her religion thrown back in her face simply because her view was similar to the view of the catholic church. This only further proves my point that if CL wasn't religious and said what she said, her comments would have been accepted as the norm. 

How fickle others can be when it comes to where similar ideas originate from. 

CL's an undesirable.

(January 18, 2018 at 3:31 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(January 18, 2018 at 3:27 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Seriously?  You seriously believe that when two people are mauling each other, grinding hips, and making out passionately, they should stop to ask permission before touching the other person between the legs?  That’s the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard, lol.

Yup 

That is very odd. Mr CL and I have never asked for permission to do anything to each other during sex. I can't imagine something like that.

(January 18, 2018 at 3:50 pm)polymath257 Wrote: From what I can see, a LOT here has to do with how we perceive non-verbal clues, how fast things progress, and whether those clues are respected when recognized.

If we even perceive them at all . . .

Can't respect what's invisible. And why use them when they're 100% vaguer than a simple "Stop touching me" even for the people who can speak non-verbal?

Hahaha, no, I don't need to ask that question.  I already possess the list. 

I;m just offering some insight as to why a person thinks "why does poerson x think such an awful thing about me?"

Well, because you might have just euphemized something that you consider equally horrible.  Its sounds fucking horrible when the other person says it, and unpolitely.

There's no functional difference between "If she takes her clothes off while were flirting it's reasonable to assume she's interested in sex" and "OFC the bitch wanted it, she got naked."

-all of us, all very fine people, I'm sure, rail against the latter..obviously.

or

"I question her motivations, and why did she go to reporters first instead of cops?" and "Bitches be lyin". Or, my favorite from earlier, "bitches be entrappin".

(January 18, 2018 at 3:27 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(January 18, 2018 at 3:22 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Then that's shady . now to be fair she should ask too . before grabbing your junk .

so in other words ripe for potential rape . Ans as i sad not saying no doesn't mean yes . 

That's absurd

Seriously?  You seriously believe that when two people are mauling each other, grinding hips, and making out passionately, they should stop to ask permission before touching the other person between the legs?  That’s the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard, lol.  Talk about killing the moment!

So he wants completely non-spontaneous and non-passionate mechanical robot sex.

Is that even fucking sex?

Let me restate that.... it may be 'sex' but (or sex butt).... but is that even fucking fucking?

Tiz has gotta have either had the crappiest sex known to man with weird robot people.... or.... he's bullshitting us.

Tiz's follow up Amazon Bestseller is gonna be "The Day My Robot Penis Shrank After A Mechanical Breakdown Due To Boredom". But he'd spell it wrong.