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~~John V~~ · March 5, 2018 at 2:58 pm

Maybe he's digging up a link to the IOC's rationale for their T limits.

GrandizerII · March 6, 2018 at 11:05 am

Not sure if this article has been dug up already in this thread, but just in case, a VERY relevant read:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570685/

~~John V~~ · March 6, 2018 at 11:20 am

(March 6, 2018 at 11:05 am)Grandizer Wrote: Not sure if this article has been dug up already in this thread, but just in case, a VERY relevant read:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570685/

I read it previously but didn't post it as it just raises the questions that were already being raised, but doesn't offer conclusions.

GrandizerII · March 6, 2018 at 11:54 am

(March 5, 2018 at 2:58 pm)alpha male Wrote: Maybe he's digging up a link to the IOC's rationale for their T limits.

As for this, note the lower boundary for normal male range:

Quote:Normal male range Total Testosterone Levels - ≥10 nmol/L

https://www.iaaf.org/download/download?f...May%202011

Perhaps the rationale then is that it would be unfair for, say, intersex women who happen to have relatively high testosterone levels and yet still be below the male range to be moved to compete against men instead. Thus, 10's the limit.

~~John V~~ · March 6, 2018 at 1:04 pm

(March 6, 2018 at 11:54 am)Grandizer Wrote: As for this, note the lower boundary for normal male range:

Unless you measure it in the evening. Then it's 6.7:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15476527

Quote:Perhaps the rationale then is that it would be unfair for, say, intersex women who happen to have relatively high testosterone levels and yet still be below the male range to be moved to compete against men instead. Thus, 10's the limit.

"Intersex woman" is an oxymoron, but I can see that as a rationale for women with hyperandrogenism, which is what the policy addresses. I don't know that I'd want any limits on such women myself. But, we're talking about transgender women.

GrandizerII · March 6, 2018 at 8:17 pm

(March 6, 2018 at 1:04 pm)alpha male Wrote:
(March 6, 2018 at 11:54 am)Grandizer Wrote: As for this, note the lower boundary for normal male range:

Unless you measure it in the evening. Then it's 6.7:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15476527

Quote:Perhaps the rationale then is that it would be unfair for, say, intersex women who happen to have relatively high testosterone levels and yet still be below the male range to be moved to compete against men instead. Thus, 10's the limit.

"Intersex woman" is an oxymoron, but I can see that as a rationale for women with hyperandrogenism, which is what the policy addresses. I don't know that I'd want any limits on such women myself. But, we're talking about transgender women.

Transgendered women are still women. These rules apply to women with relatively high levels of testosterone compared to the average woman. And "intersex woman" isn't an oxymoron when "woman" is defined in the gender sense.

~~John V~~ · March 7, 2018 at 6:44 am

(March 6, 2018 at 8:17 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Transgendered women are still women. These rules apply to women with relatively high levels of testosterone compared to the average woman. And "intersex woman" isn't an oxymoron when "woman" is defined in the gender sense.

Presumably by your standards a transgender woman is a woman solely on declaration. Do you think such women should be able to compete as women, despite having done no hormone therapy toward transition?

GrandizerII · March 7, 2018 at 7:29 am

(March 7, 2018 at 6:44 am)alpha male Wrote:
(March 6, 2018 at 8:17 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Transgendered women are still women. These rules apply to women with relatively high levels of testosterone compared to the average woman. And "intersex woman" isn't an oxymoron when "woman" is defined in the gender sense.

Presumably by your standards a transgender woman is a woman solely on declaration. Do you think such women should be able to compete as women, despite having done no hormone therapy toward transition?

As long as their testosterone levels are below the normal male range, then what's the problem?

~~John V~~ · March 7, 2018 at 8:41 am

(March 7, 2018 at 7:29 am)Grandizer Wrote: As long as their testosterone levels are below the normal male range, then what's the problem?

First, that's not what I asked. If a man declares that he's a woman, I presume that by your standards, she is at that moment. Should she be allowed to compete with women at that point? If not, why not?

Second, why would you define female as not male? Why not say that a trans woman must be within the female range, rather than outside the male range?

**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: March 7, 2018 at 8:52 am by The Grand Nudger.)

Angling for some diversion about social outrage? Meh. I doubt that it matters much, particularly to some league or association, whether or not someone declares as male or female. I declare as male and I still don't get to hop into the olympics-for-boy babys. Them not accepting me doesn't make me less of a man, nor would it make any trans woman less of a woman.

I just don't meet their criteria for admission. Cogent regulation will always exclude someone. What's the problem?

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