(April 8, 2018 at 12:06 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote:

(April 8, 2018 at 11:52 am)polymath257 Wrote: Given that there is a standing offer of $1 million to anyone who can show actual evidence in a controlled setting for paranormal events, and given that *nobody* has been able to show such under those controlled circumstances, the default position is that paranormal phenomena do not exist.

As others have pointed out, most phenomena labelled as paranormal would e known physical laws. While it is certainly *possible* that such violations occur, it requires an extreme amount of repeatable evidence under controlled circumstances to overturn our understanding (because that's how we arrived at our understanding).

So, it is my viewpoint that many people who believe in paranormal phenomena are biased in favour  of such and also do not look at the evidence, requiring it to be both definitive and done in a controlled setting. They leap to conclusions rather than really look at the strength of the evidence and alternative explanations.

At this point, the tests of paranormal phenomena have been extensive enough that anyone claiming such events is under a burden similar to someone proposing a perpetual motion machine. There are good reasons to not even consider either proposal unless the evidence is absolutely conclusive and it should be enough to convince even determined skeptics under controlled conditions.

Now, I have given an example with an all knowing being in my previous post.  Are you sure this all knowing being would say that the paranormal, soul, god, and afterlife is all bullshit?  After all, this is an amazing, all knowing being we are talking about here and, thus, he might actually say something radical and unexpected.  Skeptics would expect him to say that the paranormal is all bullshit while proponents of the paranormal would expect him to say that the paranormal is real.  But what would he really say?

What do you smoke?  And, can I have some?

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(April 8, 2018 at 9:45 am)emjay Wrote: I could never be like Mulder... and the programme's tagline: 'I want to believe' kind of sums up everything I see wrong with it. 'If you believe it, you perceive it' could be a better tagline and that's all the explanation I need for most of this 'paranormal' stuff.

Hey, don’t be hatin’ on my X-files!  😛

(April 8, 2018 at 12:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(April 8, 2018 at 12:06 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Now, I have given an example with an all knowing being in my previous post.  Are you sure this all knowing being would say that the paranormal, soul, god, and afterlife is all bullshit?  After all, this is an amazing, all knowing being we are talking about here and, thus, he might actually say something radical and unexpected.  Skeptics would expect him to say that the paranormal is all bullshit while proponents of the paranormal would expect him to say that the paranormal is real.  But what would he really say?

What do you smoke?  And, can I have some?

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(April 8, 2018 at 9:45 am)emjay Wrote: I could never be like Mulder... and the programme's tagline: 'I want to believe' kind of sums up everything I see wrong with it. 'If you believe it, you perceive it' could be a better tagline and that's all the explanation I need for most of this 'paranormal' stuff.

Hey, don’t be hatin’ on my X-files!  😛

If I said this was a real example of an all knowing being, then I would be smoking something.  But this was just a hypothetical example to make the point I was trying to make.

(April 8, 2018 at 12:31 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote:

(April 8, 2018 at 12:18 pm)polymath257 Wrote: First present the all-knowing being. Show why we think that being is all-knowing. Then we can proceed.

Would an all-knowing being think that a perpetual motion machine is possible? Well, given what we know today pretty much everyone would say no. But perhaps we missed something and such machines are possible. Does that mean we need to take the possibility seriously? No.

Your introduction of an unknowable all-knowing being is a red herring. It doesn't add anything to what we already know. It only points to the fact that *all* of our know;edge of the real world is tentative to some degree. That doesn't mean we have to be so open minded our brains fall out.

The all knowing being was just a hypothetical example to make my point.  You are also saying that we are just biological machines and, based upon that perspective, you conclude that there is no life after death and that we are not immortal.  But that is, again, just your skeptical/materialistic position.  I am talking about the all knowing perspective of a hypothetical all knowing being.  This requires you to suspend your skeptical/materialistic perspective and be open minded towards what this hypothetical all knowing being would really say.  He might say that we are souls that leave the body based upon what the researchers say in regards to quantum physics.  Or he might say that the skeptics had it right all along and that, once we die, that is it.  So, in this hypothetical example of an all knowing being, we must suspend all our perspectives.   Christians must suspend their perspective, Buddhists must suspend their perspective, and skeptics must suspend their perspective as well.

All that means is that we should base our ideas on the best available evidence at any point in time. And the best available evidence is that we are biological machines and that paranormal phenomena are not real.

This is NOT just my skeptical position. It is a position taken by looking at the available evidence and seeing where it points. If you want to suggest an alternative position, just present the evidence.

(April 8, 2018 at 1:00 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(April 8, 2018 at 12:31 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: The all knowing being was just a hypothetical example to make my point.  You are also saying that we are just biological machines and, based upon that perspective, you conclude that there is no life after death and that we are not immortal.  But that is, again, just your skeptical/materialistic position.  I am talking about the all knowing perspective of a hypothetical all knowing being.  This requires you to suspend your skeptical/materialistic perspective and be open minded towards what this hypothetical all knowing being would really say.  He might say that we are souls that leave the body based upon what the researchers say in regards to quantum physics.  Or he might say that the skeptics had it right all along and that, once we die, that is it.  So, in this hypothetical example of an all knowing being, we must suspend all our perspectives.   Christians must suspend their perspective, Buddhists must suspend their perspective, and skeptics must suspend their perspective as well.

All that means is that we should base our ideas on the best available evidence at any point in time. And the best available evidence is that we are biological machines and that paranormal phenomena are not real.

This is NOT just my skeptical position. It is a position taken by looking at the available evidence and seeing where it points. If you want to suggest an alternative position, just present the evidence.

You THINK the evidence points towards us being biological machines.  But just because you think something is true does not make it true.  Also, just because you have dedicated your life to some area of research and have become convinced this area of research speaks the truth does not make it so either.  People fall into this sort of trap all the time.  They are brought up in a certain way and are taught certain things that they think are true.  But said things could be false.  I could say the same thing in regards to the paranormal researchers as well.  Just because they believe certain things does not make them true. 

Therefore, I cannot trust anybody.  I cannot trust humanity and the things they claim are true.  I trust neither the skeptics nor the paranormal researchers.  Thus, I am left in an undecided position where I just don't know the answer one way or the other and nothing anybody says will ever convince me one way or the other.  I would have to take that full, long journey I mentioned earlier.  But, like I said before, I have no interest in researching these sorts of things.  Therefore, I can only hope that the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams awaits me after I die.  These paranormal researchers claim that we are eternal, blissful souls, that they have the evidence for this, and I can only hope this is true.

Quote:Thus, I am left in an undecided position where I just don't know the answer one way or the other and nothing anybody says will ever convince me one way or the other. 

Puts me in mind of the jackass who starved to death between two identical haystacks.

Grow a pair and take a position.

Boru

(April 8, 2018 at 1:22 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:Thus, I am left in an undecided position where I just don't know the answer one way or the other and nothing anybody says will ever convince me one way or the other. 

Puts me in mind of the jackass who starved to death between two identical haystacks.

Grow a pair and take a position.

Boru

There are things we know as basic, obvious facts.  I wouldn't be the one to starve to death because I know basic, survival things.  But then there are things which have a lot of debate about them such as the paranormal research or vaccines causing autism.  These are the sorts of things I would have to remain undecided on since it requires me to do full research and I just have no interest in researching into all the studies and objections being addressed.  So, I can trust humanity when they say certain things such as that I need to eat certain things to remain alive or I need to do this or that to keep myself alive and well.  But I cannot trust humanity when they claim that the paranormal is bullshit or not or that vaccines cause autism or not. In essence, the only truth I know is the most basic things. I do not know whether there is more to life than feeling positive emotions or if positive emotions really are the only source of good value in our lives as hedonists claim. Neither do I know anything else.

(April 8, 2018 at 12:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(April 8, 2018 at 12:06 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: Now, I have given an example with an all knowing being in my previous post.  Are you sure this all knowing being would say that the paranormal, soul, god, and afterlife is all bullshit?  After all, this is an amazing, all knowing being we are talking about here and, thus, he might actually say something radical and unexpected.  Skeptics would expect him to say that the paranormal is all bullshit while proponents of the paranormal would expect him to say that the paranormal is real.  But what would he really say?

What do you smoke?  And, can I have some?

---

(April 8, 2018 at 9:45 am)emjay Wrote: I could never be like Mulder... and the programme's tagline: 'I want to believe' kind of sums up everything I see wrong with it. 'If you believe it, you perceive it' could be a better tagline and that's all the explanation I need for most of this 'paranormal' stuff.

Hey, don’t be hatin’ on my X-files!  😛

I'm not hating on X-Files, I love X-Files... I'm just saying I couldn't be like Mulder... I'm more like Scully I'm loving the new series, and holding out for a nice slimy, gooey episode like Tooms/Squeeze or the one about the mutant fluke worm Those are my favourite sorts of episodes.

(April 8, 2018 at 1:37 pm)emjay Wrote:

(April 8, 2018 at 12:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: What do you smoke?  And, can I have some?

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Hey, don’t be hatin’ on my X-files!  😛

I'm not hating on X-Files, I love X-Files... I'm just saying I couldn't be like Mulder... I'm more like Scully I'm loving the new series, and holding out for a nice slimy, gooey episode like Tooms/Squeeze or the one about the mutant fluke worm Those are my favourite sorts of I’m 

The reboots have had some fine episodes for sure!  Unforunately, they’ve also had some devastatingly bad ones (read: all the episodes written by Chris Carter 😡).  So bad in fact, that I think they’ve damaged the show’s legacy.  Too bad GA said she’s done for good this time, not that I blame her after that finale...

Evidence schmevidence, I can't explain why the pipes in my house rattle.

(April 8, 2018 at 2:08 pm)JackRussell Wrote: Evidence schmevidence, I can't explain why the pipes in my house rattle.

Ghosts.  duh.

Boru